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Given  By 
Coir^fiittee  ot  Un-Aiaerican  Activities 


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INVESTIGATION  OF  COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE 

COLUMBUS,  OHIO,  AREA 


V 


^  HEARINGS 


BEFORE  THE 


COMMITTEE  ON  UN-AMERICAN  ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 


EIGHTY-THIRD  CONGRESS 

FIRST  SESSION 


JUNE  17  AND  18,  1953 


Printed  for  the  use  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities 
INCLUDING  INDEX 


UNITED  STATES 

GOVERNMENT  PRINTING   OFFICE  1'' 

35663  WASHINGTON  :  1953  j  ^ 


\ 


^^5 


.3^ 


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COMMITTEE  ON  UN-AMERICAN  ACTIVITIES 
United  States  House  of  Repeesentatives 

HAROLD  H.  VBLDE,  Illinois,  Chairman 
^RD  W.  KEARNEY,  New  York  FRANCIS  E.  WALTER,  Pennsylvania^ 

:^D  L.  JACKSON,  California  MORGAN  M.  MOULDER,  Missouri 

jARDY,  Michigan  CLYDE  DOYLE,  California 

>N  H.  SCHERER,  Ohio  JAMES  B.  FRAZIER,  JR.,  Tennessee 

Robert  L.  Kunzig,  Counsel 

Frank  S.  Tavenner,  Jr.,  Counsel 

LOUIS  J.  Russell,  ChieJ  Investigator 

Thomas  W.  Beale,  Sr.,  Chief  Cleric 

Raphael  I.  Nixon,  Director  of  Research 

I 


;^' 


CONTENTS 


June  17,  1953,  testimony  of —  Page 

Bella  V.  Dodd 1741 

Nerval  Neil  Luxon 1777 

Barbara  Ann  Darling 1783 

Byron  Thorwell  Darling 1795 

June  18,  1953,  testimon.y  of — 

Byron  Thorwell  Darling  (resumed) 1799 

Flora  Webster 1823 

Bereniece  ("Toby")  Baldwin 1829 

Appendix 1837 

Index 1839 

III 


PUBLIC  LAW  601,  79TH  CONGRESS 

The  legislation  under  which  the  House  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities  operates  is  Public  Law  601,  79th  Congress  [1946],  chapter 
753, 2d  session,  which  provides : 

Be  it  enacted  bij  the  Senate  and  House  of  Representatives  of  the  United  States 
of  America  in  Congress  assembled,  *  *  * 

PART  2— RULES  OF  THE  HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 

Rtile  X 

SEC.    121.     STANDING   COMMITTEES 
******* 

17.  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  to  consist  of  nine  members. 

RuxE  XI 

POWEES  AND  DUTIES  OP  COMMITTEES 


(q)    (1)  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities. 

(A)  Un-American  activities. 

(2)  Tlie  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  as  a  whole  or  by  subcommit- 
tee, is  authorized  to  make  from  time  to  time  investigations  of  (i)  the  extent, 
character,  and  objects  of  un-American  propaganda  activities  in  the  United  States, 
(ii)  the  diffusion  within  the  United  States  of  subversive  and  un-American  propa- 
ganda that  is  instigated  from  foreign  countries  or  of  a  domestic  origin  and 
attaclis  the  principle  of  the  form  of  government  as  guaranteed  by  our  Constitu- 
tion, and  (iii)  all  other  questions  in  relation  thereto  that  would  aid  Congress 
in  any  necessary  remedial  legislation. 

The  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  shall  report  to  the  House  (or  to  the 
Clerk  of  the  House  if  the  House  is  not  in  session)  the  results  of  any  such  investi- 
gation, together  with  such  recommendations  as  it  deems  advisable. 

For  the  purpose  of  any  such  investigation,  the  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities,  or  any  subcommittee  thereof,  is  authorized  to  sit  and  act  at  such 
times  and  places  within  the  United  States,  whether  or  not  the  House  is  sitting, 
has  recessed,  or  has  adjourned,  to  hold  such  hearings,  to  require  the  attendance 
of  such  witnesses  and  the  production  of  such  books,  papers,  and  documents,  and 
to  take  such  testimony,  as  it  deems  necessary.  Subpenas  may  be  issued  under 
the  signature  of  the  ctiairman  of  the  committee  or  any  subcommittee,  or  by  any 
member  designated  by  any  such  chairman,  and  may  be  served  by  any  person 
designated  by  any  such  chairman  or  member. 


RULES  ADOPTED  BY  THE  83d  CONGRESS 

House  Resolution  5,  January  3,  1953 
M  *  *  *  if  *  * 

Rule  X 

STANDING    COMMITTEES 

1.  There  shall  be  elected  by  the  House,  at  the  commencement  of  each  Con- 
gress, following  standing  committees : 

*  *  *  *  *  «  * 

(q)  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  to  consist  of  nine  members. 
******* 

Rule  XI 

POWERS  AND  DUTIES  OF  COMMITTEES 


17.  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities. 

(a)  Un-American  Activities. 

(b)  The  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  as  a  whole  or  by  subcommittee, 
is  authorized  to  make  from  time  to  time,  investigations  of  (1)  the  extent,  char- 
acter, and  objects  of  un-American  propaganda  activities  in  the  United  States, 
<2)  the  diffiusion  within  the  United  States  of  subversive  and  un-American  propa- 
ganda that  is  instigated  from  foreign  countries  or  of  a  domestic  origin  and 
attacks  the  principle  of  the  form  of  government  as  guaranteed  by  our  Constitu- 
tion, and  (3)  all  other  questions  in  relation  thereto  that  would  aid  Congress  in 
any  necessary  remedial  legislation. 

The  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  shall  report  to  the  House  (or  to  the 
Clerk  of  the  House  if  the  House  is  not  in  session)  the  results  of  any  such  investi- 
gation, together  with  such  recommendations  as  it  deems  advisable. 

For  the  purpose  of  any  such  investigation,  the  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities,  or  any  subcommittee  thereof,  is  authorized  to  sit  and  act  at  such  times 
and  places  within  the  United  States,  whether  or  not  the  House  is  sitting,  has 
recessed,  or  has  adjourned,  to  hold  such  hearings,  to  require  the  attendance 
of  such  witnesses  and  the  production  of  such  books,  papers,  and  documents,  and 
to  take  such  testimony,  as  it  deems  necessary.  Subpenas  may  be  issued  xmder 
the  signature  of  the  chairman  of  the  committee  or  any  subcommittee,  or  by  any 
member  designated  by  such  chairman,  and  may  be  served  by  any  person  desig- 
nated by  any  such  chairman  or  member. 

VI 


INVESTIGATION  OF  COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE 
COLUMBUS,  OHIO,  AREA 


wednesday,  june  17,  1953 

United  States  House  of  Representatives, 
Subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities, 

Colwmbus^  Ohio. 
PUBLIC  hearing 

The  subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  met, 
pursuant  to  call,  at  10 :  15  a.  m.,  in  hearing  room  2,  State  Office  Build- 
ing, Columbus,  Ohio;  Hon.  Gordon  H.  Scherer  (acting  chairman) 
presiding. 

Committee  members  present :  Representatives  Gordon  H.  Scherer, 
Kit  Clardy,  and  Francis  E.  Walter. 

Staff  members  present:  Robert  L.  Kunzig,  counsel;  Donald  T. 
Appell,  investigator;  and  Thomas  W.  Beale,  Sr.,  chief  clerk. 

Sergeant  at  arms :  Claude  Woodward. 

Present  as  invited  guest-observers:  Hon.  Samuel  Devine,  member 
of  the  Ohio  Legislature  and  chairman  of  the  Ohio  Commission  on 
Un-American  Activities;  and  Sidney  Isaacs,  counsel  for  the  Ohio 
Commission  on  Un-American  Activities. 

Mr.  Scherer.  The  committee  will  be  in  session. 

Let  the  record  show  that  the  Honorable  Harold  H.  Velde,  chairman 
of  the  House  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  of  the  United 
States  Congress  has  appointed  the  Honorable  Kit  Clardy  of  Michigan, 
the  Honorable  Francis  E.  Walter  of  Pennsylvania,  and  Gordon 
Scherer  of  Ohio  as  a  subcommittee  to  conduct  these  hearings  in  Co- 
lumbus, Ohio,  on  June  17,  1953. 

Let  the  record  show  that  all  members  of  that  subcommittee  are 
present. 

In  the  future  when  the  word  "committee"  is  used,  it  shall  refer  to 
this  subcommittee  as  far  as  the  record  is  concerned. 

Also  present  are  Mr.  Robert  L.  Kunzig,  counsel  for  the  committee, 
Mr.  Donald  T.  Appell,  investigator,  and  Mr.  Thomas  W.  Beale,  Sr., 
the  chief  clerk  of  the  committee. 

At  this  time,  the  chairman  appoints  Mr.  Claude  Woodward  as 
sergeant  at  arms  for  these  hearings  and  the  sergeant  at  arms  shall 
have  the  right  to  appoint  such  assistant  sergeants  at  arms  as  he  may 
deem  necessary. 

The  record  will  also  show  that  the  committee  has  invited  as  guest- 
observer  at  this  hearing,  the  Honorable  Samuel  Devine,  member  of 
the  Ohio  Legislature  and  chairman  of  the  Ohio  Commission  on  Un- 
American  Activities,  and  the  counsel  of  that  committee  and  director 
of  that  committee,  Mr.  Sidney  Isaacs. 

1739 


1740    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

At  the  opening  of  these  hearings  of  the  House  Committee  on  Un- 
American  Activities  of  the  Congress  of  the  United  States,  it  seems 
proper  and  it  might  be  helpful  if  the  purpose  and  activity  of  the 
committee  is  restated. 

The  committee  is  charged  by  law  with  investigating  the  extent, 
character  and  object  of  un-American  activities  in  the  United  States. 

It  is  charged  with  investigating  the  diffusion  in  the  United  States 
of  subversive  and  un-American  propaganda  that  is  instigated  from 
foreign  countries  or  is  of  a  domestic  origin,  and  attacks  the  principle 
and  form  of  government  as  guaranteed  by  our  Constitution. 

The  reason  such  duties  are  placed  upon  the  committee  is  to  aid  the 
Congress  in  determining  whether  or  not  remedial  legislation  is  neces- 
sary with  respect  to  these  activities  and  to  help  enlighten  the  Ameri- 
can people  with  reference  thereto. 

Since  our  country  is  presently  engaged  in  both  a  hot  and  cold  war 
with  Communist  dominated  countries,  this  committee  of  the  83rd 
Congress  is  primarily  devoting  its  attention  and  work  to  investigat- 
ing and  revealing  the  Communist  conspiracy  in  this  country.  It  has 
been  fully  established  in  testimony  before  congressional  committees 
and  before  the  highest  courts  of  our  land  that  the  Communist  Party 
of  the  United  States  is  part  of  national  conspiracy  which  is  being 
used  as  a  tool  or  weapon  by  a  foreign  power  to  promote  its  own  for- 
eign policy  and  which  has  for  its  object  the  overthrow  of  the  govern- 
ments of  all  non-Communist  countries,  resorting  to  the  use  of  force 
and  violence  if  necessary. 

The  program  for  world  domination  has  been  clearly  set  forth  by 
the  leaders  of  the  Kremlin  conspiracy.  All  who  read  may  know  the 
means  and  methods  by  which  this  objective  of  world  domination  is 
contemplated  to  be  brought  about. 

The  official  publications  of  the  Communist  conspiracy  tell  in  minute 
detail  of  a  new  method  of  conquest,  a  new  method  of  warfare,  never 
attempted  by  those  men  or  nations  that  sought  world  domination. 

The  Communist  conspiracy  provides  for  the  infiltration  of  every 
phase  and  field  of  American  life.  Communist  objectives  are  to  create 
strife  between  labor  and  management  and  within  the  labor  group  it- 
self, to  cause  people  to  be  suspicious  and  distrustful  of  the  Govern- 
ment and  the  law  enforcement  agencies  thereof,  to  make  them  dis- 
satisfied with  the  American  way  of  life,  particularly  its  economic  sys- 
tem, to  create  doubts  concerning  their  religious  teachings,  to  set  class 
against  class,  minorities  against  majorities,  and  even  minorities 
against  minorities  when  it  suits  their  purpose. 

It  is  a  process  of  attempting  to  soften  and  weaken  the  American 
people  and  its  institutions  so  that  when  the  time  comes  to  move  in, 
the  task  will  be  so  much  easier  to  accomplish.  This  is  not  theory.  The 
Soviet  Union  has  brought  behind  the  Iron  Curtain  600  million  people 
since  1933  by  the  use  of  these  methods.  Of  course,  such  a  conspiracy 
can  act  only  through  individuals.  These  individuals  must  promote 
the  Communist  program  in  the  various  American  institutions  with 
which  they  are  identified  since  they  cannot  act  in  a  vacuum.  We  find 
them  active  in  the  labor  movement,  in  industry,  in  Government,  in 
our  educational  institutions,  in  the  entertainment  field,  and  I  am  sorry 
to  say,  in  some  instances  in  the  field  of  religion. 

The  committee  is  not  investigating  these  institutions.  As  an  ex- 
ample, this  committee  as  such  has  no  interest  in  the  labor  movement 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1741 

or  in  labor's  problems  with  management,  or  in  labor's  own  inner  con- 
flicts. It  has  no  interest  as  such  in  the  personnel  that  teach  in  our 
schools  or  colleges,  nor  in  the  curriculum  or  type  of  textbooks  used 
therein.  .  These  are  matters  that  lie  solely  within  the  province  of 
the  administrators  of  our  educational  institutions. 

We  are  engaged,  however,  in  throwing  light  upon  the  nefarious  and 
subtle  activities  of  those  individuals  who  are  promoting  the  Com- 
munist conspiracy  so  that  the  average  American  may  know  them  and 
recognize  the  activities  and  propaganda  of  a  foreign  power  when  he 
comes  in  contact  with  it,  either  in  the  shop,  in  school,  in  church,  or  in 
any  other  phase  of  everyday  life. 

Now,  some  persons  say  that  the  Communist  menace  is  being  exag- 
gerated. However,  within  the  last  60  days,  J.  Edgar  Hoover,  head  of 
the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation,  testified  under  oath  before  the 
Appropriations  Committee  of  the  Congress.  He  said  the  Communists 
today  are  infiltrating  every  field  of  American  activity,  namely,  civil 
rights,  youth  and  veterans'  groups,  press,  radio,  television,  motion  pic- 
ture, political  organizations,  schools,  and  colleges. 

He  further  testified  that  espionage  rings  are  working  more  intensely 
than  ever  before  in  the  history  of  the  United  States.  Remember  this 
is  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Hoover  within  the  last  60  days. 

There  ai^e  those  who  argue  that  communism  is  only  a  political  belief 
or  a  philosophy.  It  certainly  is  not  a  political  party  as  we  know 
political  parties  in  this  country.     That  is  a  misnomer. 

It  is  a  conspiracy  dominated  by  a  foreign  power.  True  it  is  that 
the  philosophy  of  communism  appears  to  be  an  attractive  philosophy. 
Christianity  teaches  the  brotherhood  of  man  and  the  fatherhood  of 
God.  Communism  purports  to  teach  the  brotherhood  of  man  without 
God.  However,  the  ideological  phase  of  communism  is  used  only  to 
ensnare  the  masses.  Behind  it  lies  the  age-old  lust  for  power  and 
domination  by  evil  men. 

Mr.  Counsel,  is  your  first  witness  ready  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  first  witness  is  Dr.  Bella  Dodd.  Please  step 
forward.  Dr.  Dodd. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Will  you  raise  your  right  hand.  Doctor  ? 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  shall  give  to  this  sub- 
committee shall  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  I  do. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  are  you  accompanied  by  an  attorney? 

TESTIMONY  OF  BELLA  V.  DODD 

Dr.  Dodd.  I  am  not. 

Mr.  KuNZTG.  You  understand,  of  course,  your  rights  to  have  an  at- 
torney here  ?  The  committee  encourages  anyone  to  have  an  attorney 
with  them  if  they  so  wish.     I  take  it  that  you 

Dr.  Dodd.  My  attorney  was  unable  to  be  here  today  and  I  decided  to 
come  alone. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  are  perfectly  willing  to  testify  without  an  at- 
torney ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Will  you  give  your  full  name  please,  for  the  record? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Bella  V.  Dodd. 


1742     COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  What  is  voiir  present  address  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  100  West  42d  Street,  New  York  City. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Your  profession  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Attorne3\ 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  <rive  tlie  committee  a  resume  of  your  educa- 
tional background.  Dr.  Dodd'^ 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  went  to  the  public  schools.  I  went  to  public  ele- 
mentary and  high  schools  and  attended  Hunter  College,  one  of  the 
public  colleges  in  New  York,  from  which  I  received  my  bachelor  of 
arts  degree.  I  did  my  master's  work  and  worked  toward  the  doctorate 
in  political  science  at  Columbia  from  which  I  received  a  master  of  arts 
degree. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  In  what  year  did  you  receive  that  degree  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  In  1927.  I  received  doctor  of  jurisprudence  degree  from 
New  York  University  and  was  admitted  to  the  New  York  bar  in  1931. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  that  ends  your  formal  education  in  schools  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  know  you  have  had  a  lot  more  since  then. 

Dr.  Dodd,  would  you  give  the  committee,  for  the  record,  a  resume 
of  your  employment  background,  your  occupation  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Well,  I  taught  in  the  New  York  public  schools  and 
high  schools  for  several  months  after  graduating  from  college.  I 
graduated  from  college  in  1925,  and  in  1926  I  was  called  back  to 
Hunter  College  to  teach  in  their  political  science  and  economics  de- 
partment, and  I  taught  there  from  1926  to  1938. 

In  1938,  I  resigned  from  my  job  as  instructor  at  Hunter  College, 
and  decided  to  go  into  the  labor  movement.  I  became  an  organizer 
and  legislative  representative  of  the  New  York  Teacher's  Union.  It 
was  a  local  union  of  the  American  Federation  of  Teachers. 

Thereafter  I  organized  the  New  York  Federation  of  Teachers  and 
became  its  organizer  and  continued  with  the  teachers'  movement  until 
1943  at  which  time  I  joined  the  Communist  Party  as  an  official  member 
with  a  card. 

At  that  time,  I  became  a  legislative  representative  of  the  Communist 
Party  of  the  New  York  district.  I  resigned  from  my  position  as  legis- 
lative representative  of  the  Communist  Party  in  1946  and  went  back 
into  the  practice  of  law.    I  have  been  practicing  law  since  then. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  tell  the  committee,  please,  what  offices  in 
the  Communist  Party  you  held,  if  any? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Well,  I  worked  with  the  Communist  Party  from  1932  to 
1943  in  various  capacities,  but  not  known  as  a  Communist.  I  did 
not  carry  a  card.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  Communist  Party  made  it 
very  emphatic  that  professional  people  engaged  in  public  service  who 
had  public  jobs  were  not  to  be  exposed  and  were  not  to  be  card- 
carrying  members.  I  was  not  even  a  ]iart  of  a  cell,  but  I  worked  with 
them  in  the  trade-union  movement  since  my  union  was  an  A.  F.  of  L. 
union  at  the  time.  I  served  as  part  of  the  fraction  in  that  union  for 
the  purpose  of  moving  it  in  the  direction  of  the  Communist  Party. 

After  the  Teheran  Conference  and  Yalta  Conference,  we  were 
told  the  United  States  and  the  Soviet  Union  were  going  forward 
to  a  hundred  years  of  peace. 

Mr,  KuNziG.  Would  you  continue? 

Dr.  Dodd.  We  were  discussing  my  party  activities. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA    1743 

Dr.  DoDD.  In  1943,  when  the  theory  of  the  party  was  tliat  we  were 
going  into  a  period  of  mutual  coexistence  between  the  capitalist 
world  and  Connnunist  world,  we  were  told  there  would  be  peace  for 
a  hundred  years  to  come  between  the  two  worlds,  and  each  would 
learn  from  the  other.  At  that  time,  I  w\as  approached  by  Gil  Green, 
State  chairman  of  the  Communist  Party. 

Mr.  Clardy.  In  what  State  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  New  York  State.  He  approached  me  at  a  State  hear- 
ing on  the  budget  where  I  was  representing  my  union  at  the  budg- 
etary hearings.  He  asked  whether  I  would  join  the  party  and  become 
its  legislative  representative.  Simon  Gerson,  their  representative 
at  tliat  time,  was  going  into  the  Army.    I  said  I  would. 

I  became  the  legislative  representative  in  lOii  and  continued  until 
1946.  I  became  a  member  of  the  State  committee  of  the  Communist 
Party.  I  became  a  member  of  the  State  secretariat  consisting  of 
three  people,  wdiich  met  day  by  day  to  decide  what  was  to  be  done. 
I  became  a  member  of  the  national  committee  of  the  Communist 
Party  from  1944  to  1948.  I  remained  a  member  of  the  State  Com- 
munist Party  of  New  York,  1944-48.  I  was  expelled  from  the  Com- 
munist Party  publicly  after  much  harassment  in  1949;  June  19,  1949. 

Mr.  ScHEREE.  I  am  going  to  have  to  interrupt. 

It  is,  of  course,  very  important  that  the  press  hear  every  word. 
They  continue  to  indicate  to  me  that  they  can't  hear  in  the  place  they 
are  seated.    We  will  have  to  remedy  that  condition. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  a  suggestion.  Let's  move  them 
in  fi'ont  and  perhaps  they  can  hear. 

We  will  take  time  out  for  that. 

Mr.  ScHERFJ}.  We  will  take  a  short  recess. 

(Short  recess.) 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Tlie  committee  will  be  in  session. 

You  may  proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd.  due  to  the  difficulties  of  acoustics,  we  have 
been  requested,  if  you  wouldn't  mind,  if  you  would  kindly  answer 
tlie  last  question  again  and  give  in  detail  your  party  offices  and  your 
position  in  the  party  through  the  years. 

Mr.  Walter.  Before  doing  that,  Mr.  Counsel,  Mr.  Chairman,  I 
would  like  to  ask  a  question  of  Dr.  Dodd. 

You  have  testified  that  you  were  instructed,  as  were  other  members 
of  the  professional  group,  not  to  carry  your  Communist  Party  card. 
Was  that  a  uniform  rule  in  existence  tliroughout  the  United  States  or 
only  in  New  York  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  It  w^as  a  uniform  rule  throughout  the  United  States  that 
professional  people  were  to  be  protected.  In  many  cases,  they  did 
not  receive  cards.  If  they  were  in  very  high  and  important  posi- 
tions, such  as  Government  positions  or  civil  service,  no  cards  were 
issued.  Cards  were  held  by  the  secretaries,  various  membership 
secretaries,  and  they  were  held  under  a  first  name  or  a  pseudonym.  A. 
card  might  be  held  under  the  name  of  "\^niitey,  or  Blackey,  or  Eed,  or 
Mar}'-,  or  Jane,  or  Nancy. 

Mr.  Walter.  Then  there  is  no  significance  to  the  fact  that  some 
people  regarding  whom  we  have  evidence  of  being  card-carrying 
Communists  didn't  actually  have  cards  issued  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  There  was  no  significance  whatever  when  it  came  to 
people  important  in  the  civil  service  or  the  professions. 


1744    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA 

Mr.  Clardt.  Carrying  a  card  wasn't  an  essential  part  of  the  busi- 
ness of  being  a  Communist  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  It  was  not. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  would  you  go  again,  please,  through  the 
party  offices  you  held  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  became  associated  with  the  Communist  Party  in  1932, 
when  I  first  began  to  cooperate  with  the  party.  By  1936,  I  was  not 
only  cooperating  with  the  party,  but  I  was  under  discipline.  By 
that,  I  mean  I  attended  various  fraction  meetings  of  the  various  or- 
ganizations to  which  I  belonged.  For  instance,  I  was  a  delegate  to 
the  Central  Trades  and  Labor  Council  for  the  American  Federation 
of  Labor  in  New  York.  I  was  a  delegate  to  the  State  Federation  of 
Labor  conventions  practically  all  of  those  years,  and  I  attended  the 
Communist  fraction  meetings  for  the  American  Federation  of  Labor. 

I  was  a  member  of  the  Teachers'  Union  and  leader  of  the  Teachers' 
Union,  and  attended  its  fraction  meetings  of  the  executive  board  and 
various  parts  of  the  Teachers'  Union. 

By  1943, 1  was  still  a  representative  of  my  union.  At  that  time,  the 
party  asked  whether  I  wouldn't  come  forward  publicly  and  become 
a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  and  an  officer  of  the  Communist 
Party. 

Many  of  their  men  were  going  into  the  world  war,  and  Si  Gerson, 
whose  place  I  took  as  legislative  representative,  was  going  into  the 
Army.  At  that  time,  I  was  sold  the  idea  that  there  would  be  mutual 
coexistence  between  the  Communists  and  the  western  world.  There 
would  be  a  period  of  a  hundred  years  of  peace  between  the  two  differ- 
ent ideologies,  and  what  was  needed  in  this  country  was  an  antidote 
to  Eed  baiting.  Since  I  believed  the  Communists  at  that  time  were 
going  ahead  with  improving  the  conditions  of  the  world,  I  said  I 
would  do  it. 

Mr.  Clardt.  You  mean  that  was  the  party  line  at  that  time  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  That  is  correct.  That  was  the  party  line,  and  became 
the  party  line  of  many  of  the  liberals  of  this  country  and  much  of 
the  Government  of  this  country.  We  received  that  kind  of  informa- 
tion from  the  party  and  also  from  Washington. 

In  1943,  since  I  believed  the  things  which  they  said  they  stood  for, 
I  said  I  would  be  willing  to  serve  as  legislative  representative.  I  be- 
came the  legislative  repersentative.  I  became  a  member  of  the  State 
committee,  and  I  was  appointed  as  a  member  of  the  secretariat  of  the 
New  York  State  party.  There  were  three  members  of  the  secretariat. 
That  was  the  group  that  met  every  day  to  decide  what  should  be  done 
by  the  State  party.  The  secretariat  served  between  meetings  of  the 
State  board  and  the  State  board  served  between  meetings  of  the  State 
committee. 

In  1944, 1  became  a  member  of  the  national  committee  of  the  Com- 
munist Party.  I  attended  the  national  convention  of  1944,  and  be- 
came a  member  of  the  national  committee. 

In  the  spring  of  1945,  when  the  tremendous  change  in  the  party 
line  took  place  because  of  the  Duclos  letter  sent  from  France  to  the 
United  States  which  said  we  American  Communists  had  better  stop 
playing  the  democracy  game,  stop  working  so  closely  with  the  liberals 
and  democrats  and  get  back  to  the  job  of  preparing  for  revolution, 
at  that  time,  I  was  a  delegate  to  the  convention  in  1945.  I  was  elected 
again  to  the  national  committee,  and  remained  on  the  national  com- 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1745 

mittee  until  1948,  when  the  new  convention,  of  course,  failed  to  elect 
me,  because  I  had  gotten  into  difficulties  with  the  party  in  the  interim. 

Mr.  Clardt.  Dr.  Dodd,  I  would  like  to  take  up  one  little  point  that 
you  mentioned  in  the  middle  of  your  last  answer.  You  talked  about 
fraction  meetings  within  the  A.  F.  of  L.  In  order  to  correct  any  mis- 
apprehensions, you  are  not  trying  to  say,  of  course,  that  the  A.  F.  of  L. 
was  a  Communist  group;  would  you  correct  that  further? 

Dr.  DoDD.  By  no  means.  None  of  the  big  organizations  in  which 
they  function  may  be  Communist.  For  instance,  within  the  A.  F.  of  L. 
the  few  Communists  who  were  in  there  were  strongly  organized,  and 
this  is  tlie  secret  of  the  Communist  movement:  Centralization  and 
organization. 

You  might  have  five  delegates  to  the  American  Federation  of  Labor 
convention  who  were  Communists,  but  they  met  in  advance,  decided 
what  they  were  going  to  do  in  advance,  discussed  among  themselves 
what  they  could  accomplish  at  that  convention,  and  they,  at  least, 
would  be  armecl  and  would  get  something  out  of  that  convention 
when  the  others  might  not  know  what  they  were  driving  at. 

Of  course,  they  would  always  set  the  objectives  as  limited  objectives. 

For  instance,  they  would  ask  that  some  resolution  on  war  or  peace 
be  passed,  depending  on  what  the  Soviet  policy  was. 

Take,  for  instance,  the  women's  club.  I  was  a  member  of  the 
women's  committee  and  the  committee  on  education  and  youth  and^ 
labor.  It  was  our  function  to  get  into  all  the  women's  organizations 
we  possibly  could.  I  don't  say  many  of  the  women's  clubs  are  Com- 
munist, of  course  they  are  not,  but  the  Communists  within  those 
women's  organizations  function  as  a  centralized  unit,  prepared  in 
advance,  coached  in  advance  by  the  party  leaders  as  to  what  their 
objectives,  what  their  aims  were,  and  what  they  could  get  out  of  these 
organizations. 

That  is  the  secret  of  their  success,  the  fact  that  they  are  prepared 
in  advance,  have  been  coached  in  advance. 

Mr.  Walter.  Doctor,  before  you  go  further,  can  you  give  us  the 
names  of  the  New  York  State  secretariat  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Dr.  Dodd.  At  the  time  I  functioned,  Gil  Green,  wdio  is  now  no 
longer  in  the  United  States,  Israel  Amter,  and  myself. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  I  think  the  committee  would  be  most  inter- 
ested in  hearing  how  you  became  a  Communist;  the  events  and  the 
things  that  happened  in  your  life  that  led  to  your  becoming  an  active 
Communist. 

Dr.  Dodd.  Well,  I  daresay  that  many  of  the  people  going  through 
the  same  experiences  that  I  went  through  might  not  have  become 
Communists ;  many  did  not.  Whatever  weaknesses  there  were  within 
me  that  made  me  a  Communist,  as  I  look  back,  these  are  the  things 
which  conditioned  me. 

My  people  were  immigrants  in  this  country.  I  was  the  youngest 
in  a  family  of  10.  The  struggle  for  a  living  was  a  hard  struggle. 
Our  family  lost  touch  with  the  culture  of  Europe  and  didn't  become 
absorbed  into  the  culture  of  the  United  States.  We  lived  in  a  great, 
big  city,  where  it  was  a  question  of  dog  eat  dog,  and  the  devil  take 
the  hindmost.  Our  family  stopped  going  to  church  and  having  any 
connection  with  the  church,  which  is  an  important  part  of  its  cultural 
background. 


1746     COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS      DHIO,   AREA 

We  children,  of  course,  went  to  the  pul)lic  schoo.5.  I  liappened  to 
be  a  briglit  child.  I  was  encouraged  to  develop  my  mind  to  a  great 
extent,  and  we  had  a  great  deal  of  pride  in  the  fact  that  we  could 
solve  all  the  problems  by  the  use  of  our  minds.  We  tended  to  forget 
the  M'hole  question  of  the  spiritual  side  based  on  the  accumulated 
wisdom  of  western  civilization. 

In  our  public  schools,  by  and  large,  they  do  not  have,  or  did  not 
haA'e  at  that  time,  any  real  central  ideal  on  which  they  were  based, 
or  central  philosophy  on  whicli  they  were  based.  It  was'  a  question  of 
acquiring  facts  and  skills.  You  acquired  a  lot  of  information,  but 
you  had  no  standard  by  which  to  judge  these  facts. 

I  was  a  warm-hearted  kind  of  person ;  my  heart,  like  many  Ameri- 
cans, went  out  to  the  underdog.  In  the  early  lOoO's,  the  family  had 
grown  up,  and  I  had  the  opportunity  to  g'o  to  Europe.  I  visited 
Italy  and  Germany.  I  was  appalled  by  the  growth  of  fascism  in 
Italy  and  more  distressed  over  what  was  happening  in  Germany.  On 
the  campus  in  Germany,  I  saw  young  men  fighting  with  fists,  guns, 
rocks,  and  so  forth  and  so  on. 

I  came  back  to  the  United  States  a  firm  and  confirmed  anti-Fascist. 
I  was  determined  that  that  thing  would  not  touch  my  country,  the 
people  I  knew.  When  I  got  back,  Ave  were  deep  in  the  depression. 
Immediately  after  I  got  back,  the  banks  closed.  I  stood  on  42d  Street 
.and  watched  the  Bowery  Savings  Bank  close  and  watched  the  line  of 
people  scared  stiff  as  to  what  was  going  to  happen  to  them. 

I  was  an  easy  person  to  approach.  Nobody  else  approached  me  at 
that  time,  but  the  Communists  were  on  my  doorstep  with  the  question, 
"We  hear  you  are  an  anti-Fascist.     Will  you  join  the  committee?" 

I  Avas  the  kind  of  person  who  felt  if  you  believed  in  something 
strongly,  you  had  to  act.  I  was  an  anti-Fascist.  They  asked  me  to 
join  a  committee.  I  did.  I  did  not  know  how  they  were  functioning. 
The  committee  I  joined  was  the  Anti-Fascist  Literature  Committee. 
My  job  was  to  write  leaflets  against  fascism,  make  speeches  against 
fascism,  and  raise  money  for  the  underground  movement. 

I  was  approached  by  a  women  named  Harriett  Silverman — dead 
now ;  may  her  soul  rest  in  peace — she  was  an  international  operative 
for  the  Soviet  Union.    I  didn't  know  that  until  after  she  died. 

I  was  taken  to  Earl  Browder  in  1032  in  order  to  check  the  fact  that 
the  money  was  being  raised  by  a  legitimate  organization.  Mr.  Brow- 
der didn't  do  anything,  shook  hands  and  said,  "I  am  glad  you  are  go- 
ing to  fight  against  fascism."     That  is  all. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  know  at  that  time  Avho  Mr.  Browder  was? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes,  I  knew  he  was  chairman  of  the  Communist  Party. 
At  that  time,  I  didn't  care  about  labels.  I  used  to  say,  ''If  these 
people  are  against  fascism,  I  am  Avith  them,"  just  as.  thereafter,  I 
Avas,  for  instance,  brought  into  a  campaign  to  introduce  legislation  on 
social  security,  back  in  1932,  1933,  the  fact  that  they  Avere  Com- 
munists didn't  bother  me.  I  felt  that  these  things  Avere  right,  and  I 
AA'ould  join  them,  and  I  think  that  is  the  Avay  millions  of  AmeiMcaus 
are  sucked  into  suj^porting  Communist  projects  because  the  thing 
which  is  shown  to  them  is  that  Avhich  seems  to  be  good,  or 

Mr.  KuNZTO.  Even  those  peo]')le  Avho  are  not  Conununists,  but  Avho 
are  sucked  into  and  actually  su])port  Avhat  the  Conununists  are  after? 

Dr.  DoDi).  Yes;  the  Communist  suiipoit  seems  to  be  large  because 
people  are  sucked  into  things  Avhich  seem  to  be  good  in  themselves. 


COMJVIUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1747 

They  don't  recognize  that  tlie  Communist  Party  uses  these  slogans, 
these  generalizations,  in  order  to  break  down  their  resistance,  and 
ultimately  they  are  tied  in  with  the  Communist  movement. 

Some  were  against  discrimination.  We  are  against  repression, 
against  war,  against  fascism,  and  the  Communist  Party  takes  our 
best  instincts  and  uses  them  against  us  by  twisting  us  into  a  program 
which  they  want  us  to  follow. 

Take,  for  instance,  the  whole  question  of  antifascism.  The  Com- 
munist Party  in  tliis  country  set  itself  up  as  the  one  organization  that 
was  fighting  fascism.  Very  few  other  organizations  gave  them  a 
battle  for  that,  and  so  the  Americans  got  to  feeling,  "These  are  the 
anti-Fascists." 

We  only  learn  now,  after  reading  the  documents  captured  by  the 
American  soldiers  in  Germany,  that  throughout  the  time  the  Com- 
munists were  calling  themselves  "anti-Fascists,"  they  were  working 
with  the  German  high  brass  while  Hitler  was  in  power.  They  were 
meeting  to  decide  on  the  diA'ision  of  Europe.  When  Molotov  said  the 
Soviet-Nazi  pact  was  written  in  blood,  he  didn't  mean  the  blood  of 
the  Soviet  Union,  but  he  meant  in  the  blood  of  the  Polish  people, 
of  the  Czechoslovakia!!  people. 

I  didn't  know  then  what  I  ki!ow  !ioav,  for  ii!stance.  In  1935, 1  stood 
on  the  platfor!n  at  Hu!!ter  College;  I  was  an  instructor  then. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  What  college? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Hunter-  College.  I  was  teaching  at  Plunter  College 
from  1926  to  1938.  In  1935,  I  stood  up  before  the  faculty,  and  the 
st!!de!!ts,  and  !!!ade  a  speech  which  I  will  i!ever  forget.  It  was  e!ititled, 
"Fascis!n  Means  War."  I  was  going  on  the  assumption  that  the 
Fascists  aiid  Co!!i!!ii!nists  were  two  difFere!it  things.  I  didi!'t  know 
then  what  I  know  !!ow,  that  every  drop  of  crude  oil  used  by  the 
Fascists  in  Italy  to  drop  bombs  on  Abyssinia  was  sold  to  them  by  the 
Soviet  U!!io!i. 

Well,  they  took  the  anti-Fascist  slogan  and  made  themselves  the 
protagonists  of  antifascism. 

They  did  the  sa!!ie  tl!i!!g  with  the  word  "de!nocracy."  It  became 
very  difficult  to  oppose  the!T!  becai!se  they  posed  everything  in  terms 
of  the  word  "democracy."    That  was  during  the  Workl  War  II  period. 

Now  they  are  on  a  "Soviet  peace  propaganda"  campaig!i.  They  say, 
"If  you  are  agai!!st  the  Co!n!nunists,  you  are  for  war."  That  is  abso- 
lutely untrue,  because  just  as  antifascism  of  the  Comiiiunists  led  to 
fascism,  so  the  whole  peace  progra!!i  of  the  Soviet  Union,  if  you  are 
realistic  about  it,  will  inevitably  lead  to  war.  We  have  to  have  our 
owi!  peace  prograi!!.    It  has  to  be  an  A!nerican  peace  progra!n. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  described  to  us,  the!!,  how  you  yourself  beca!Tie 
a  inember  of  the  Co!n!!iunist  Party.  I  would  like  to  bring  up  one 
point.  You  mentioned  a  Gil  Green.  Is  that  the  same  Gil  Green  now 
a  fugitive  from  justice  after  conviction  uiider  the  S!!iith  Act? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes.  Mr.  Kunzig,  !nay  I  add  one  thing  about  becoming 
a  Co!ni!iu!iist  ?  Oi!e  doesn't  become  a  Coniiiiunist  overnight  by  get- 
ting a  card.  You  beco!!ie  a  Com!nunist  over  a  long  period  of  time 
by  acting  with  them  little  by  little  until  you  find  yourself  so  en- 
i!iesl!ed  that  you  have  lost  your  other  connections  with  society  except 
that  group  which  operates  in  secret  and  operates  together  aiid  estab- 
lishes a  co!nraderie  which  is  a  part  of  the  fascination  of  the  movement. 


1748    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  Clardt.  Your  getting  out  of  the  party  is  more  or  less  a  reversal 
of  the  process  by  which  you  go  in.  You  come  out  slowly  as  you 
awaken  to  these  things  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  It  takes  just  as  long  a  time  to  come  out  of  the  party  as 
it  does  to  get  in.  It  is  much  more  painful.  Getting  in,  you  are 
somewhat  excited  because  you  are  going  into  something  secret  and 
active,  but  getting  out  is  a  disillusioning  process  because  you  have 
nothing  else  to  hold  onto.  You  have  no  other  standard  of  belief. 
You  have  no  other  standard  by  which  to  judge  all  activities,  you  find 
yourself  out  in  a  world  of  nothingness.  That  is  why  it  is  difficult  for 
people  to  pull  out.  They  have  lost  contact  with  friends  and  families, 
and  move  only  within  a  restricted  circle. 

Pulling  out,  also,  is  painful  because  you  are  punished.  The  kind  of 
punishment  which  the  Communists  mete  out  to  the  person  trying  to 
get  out  of  the  party  is  a  terrific  thing.  There  are  hundreds  of 
Americans  who  are  in  the  Communist  Party  who  would  like  to  be 
out  of  it,  but  they  are  so  entrapped  they  are  afraid  to  get  out.  They 
are  afraid  of  being  anti-Communist  and  they  remain  in  the  party 
and  shrivel  up  and  become  nothing. 

Mr.  Walter.  That  I  understand  with  uneducated  people,  but  I 
can't  understand  it  as  it  applies  to  people  such  as  you  or  other  profes- 
sional people.  They  have  their  professions  and  their  ability  to  analyze 
facts,  truths,  and  it  would  certainly  seem  to  me  that  if  it  takes  them 
a  long  while,  they  are  wondering  whether  or  not  they  want  to  get  out 
or  ought  to  get  out. 

Dr.  DoDD.  Well,  Congressman  Walter,  communism  is  a  way  of  life. 
It  is  a  whole  philosophy  of  being.  If  you  believe  in  communism,  then 
everything  you  do,  you  do  with  this  philosophy.  If  once  you  lose 
that  philosophy,  you  have  to  rethink  your  every  single  act  and  every 
statement  you  make.  Where  shall  you  stand  on  this  question  if  you 
don't  have  a  barometer  by  which  to  live  ? 

Unfortunately,  unless  one  has  a  religious  background  and  a  tre- 
mendous devotion  and  understanding  of  American  history  and  the 
American  system  of  Government,  one  is  left  floundering  because  one 
doesn't  know  where  to  go.  The  Communists  make  it  very  hard  for 
you  to  get  out. 

First  of  all,  they  punish  you.  In  1946,  when  I  tried  to  walk  out  of 
the  Communist  Party,  Bill  Norman,  then  secretary  of  the  party  in 
New  York,  said,  "Dodd,  nobody  gets  out  of  the  party.  We  throw 
you  out,  but  you  don't  get  out  by  yourself." 

Then  you  are  told  that  everyone  who  gets  out  will  ultimately  dis- 
integrate and  become  nothing  but  a  stool  pigeon.  That  is  a  hard  word 
to  live  with.     It  is  a  hard  word  to  live  with. 

Mr,  Walter.  Now,  just  at  that  point — and  I  think  that  dramatizes 
exactly  what  I  am  talking  about — you  as  an  educated  person  know 
that  this  appellation  applies  to  somebody  who  is  talking  about  a 
political  philosophy,  an  illegal  act.  You  know  you  were  doing  what 
you  were  because  of  perfectly  pure  motives,  so  that  when  the  threat 
is  made  to  cliarge  you  w^ith  being  a  stool  pigeon,  why  wouldn't  you 
just  dismiss  that  from  your  mind  because  you  know  that  it  isn't  true? 

Dr.  DoDD.  You  see,  the  newspapers,  magazine  articles  (the  party 
has  tremendous  influence  with  them)  continue  to  use  these  words 
about  "ex-Communists."  They  will  use  the  regular  words  which  we 
apply  to  the  underworld,  question  of  "stool  pigeon,"  "rats,"  the  per- 
son who  "sings,"  and  so  forth  and  so  on. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA    1749 

It  becomes  an  emotional  thing,  and  not  an  intellectual  process.  In- 
tellectually, the  reason  I  made  the  break  was  because  I  felt  I  was  in 
the  wrong  pew,  and  I  had  to  find  the  way  out,  and  I  received  a  great 
deal  of  help  from  some  very  wonderful  Americans  who  were  filled 
with  the  spirit  of  charity,  but  not  every  one  has  people  available  to 
extend  the  hand  to  them  and  say,  "Look,  come  on  over,"  and  what  we 
need  to  do  is  to  extend  the  hancl  of  charity,  to  extend  the  hand  of  in- 
telligence to  people  entrapped  in  this  situation  and  say  to  them,  "Look, 
nothing  is  going  to  happen  to  you.  If  you  did  it  out  of  good  motives, 
out  of  generosity,  come  on  out  and  take  your  place  in  society."  We 
try  to  do  that  in  New  York  City  in  the  school  system. 

We  have  said  to  the  school  teachers,  '*If  you  were  in  the  party  and 
are  out  now,  nothing  will  be  said  publicly." 

I  am  here  to  testify  to  this  committee  that  as  far  as  I  know,  no  one 
in  New  York  City  has  been  hurt  by  the  fact  that  he  was  in  the  party 
if  he  went  to  the  superintendent  and  said,  "I  was  a  member.  I  am  no 
longer." 

His  or  her  name  hasn't  been  mentioned  publicly.  The  people  who 
got  notoriety  are  those  who  asked  for  it  by  refusing  to  answer  the 
question. 

Mr.  Walter.  That  is  largely  attributable  to  the  fact  that  those 
people  are  subconsciously,  at  least,  willing  to  participate  in  a  con- 
spiracy to  overthrow  this  Government? 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  think  that  is  the  first  thing  that  the  Communist  begins 
to  accept,  and  you  may  ask,  Congressman  Walter,  how  does  an  in- 
telligent person  accept  that? 

Well,  they  divide  your  loyalty  to  the  "country"  from  loyalty  to 
the  "people."  They  say,  "We  are  the  greatest  Aniericans  there  are. 
We  believe  in  supporting  the  people." 

Who  are  the  people?  They  are  for  the  class  society — for  the  pro- 
letariat. They  say,  "The  working  class  makes  up  98  percent  of  the 
people.  Therefore,  we,  in  our  desire  to  protect  the  people,  are  the 
greatest  democrats  that  there  are." 

But  they  forget- 

Mr.  Walter.  That  is  a  small  "d,"  of  course  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes ;  they  forget  to  tell  you  that  as  far  as  they  are  con- 
cerned, before  they  are  through  taking  power,  they  will  kill  off  large 
sections  of  the  working  class  if  it  doesn't  go  along  with  their  program. 

This  is  the  thing  which  brought  me  back  to  my  senses,  the  fact  that 
they  are  ruthless,  ruthless  not  only  to  people  in  different  classes  but 
ruthless  to  the  workers  themselves. 

For  instance,  they  say  they  have  nothing  to  do  with  the  people  who 
are  in  the  bourgeoisie  or  the  owners  of  industry.  Therefore,  that 
class  is  out.  Then  the  professional  people  or  the  middle  class,  the 
newspaper  men,  the  writers,  the  doctors,  the  lawyers,  those  people  are 
looked  upon  as  expendable  also  because  they  are  regarded  as  an  un- 
stable class. 

Then  you  come  down  to  the  proletariat,  the  working  class,  and  those 
who  don't  go  along  with  the  Communist  theory  are  also  expendable,  so 
you  find  it  is  a  program  for  the  selected  few  who  will  go  along  with 
the  self-appointed  Communist  Party,  and  the  Communist  Party  is  a 
group  of  self-appointed  people. 

35663—53 2 


1750     COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  you  were  talking  about  the  teachers  of  New 
York  and  the  fact  that  nothing  happened  to  those  who  assisted  and 
worked  with  the  school  board  and  those  who  got  out  of  the  party.  You 
talked  about  those  who  took  the  fifth  amendment  or  refused  to  answer 
as  the  ones  getting  the  notoriety.  Do  you  have  any  observations, 
from  your  own  experiences,  knowing  these  people  personally,  on 
those  who  are  today  using  the  fifth  amendment  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  The  people  I  know,  and  I  knew  practically  everyone  in 
New  York  City  who  appeared  before  the  various  committees,  I  know 
of  ]io  one  who  has  appeared  and  claimed  the  fifth  amendment,  in  New 
York  City,  who  was  not  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  In  other  words,  you  are  saying  to  us  here  this  morning 
that  every  person  that  you  saw  take  the  fifth  amendment  in  New  York 
City  and  refused  to  answer,  while  protesting  innocence,  was  to  your 
knowledge  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  I  do  so  say. 

Mr.  WaIvTer.  Then  that  leads  me  to  the  conclusion  that  anybody 
who  advises  people  to  refuse  to  answer  questions  propounded  by  this 
committee  is  advising  them  very  badly. 

Dr.  Dodd.  I  am  glad  you  made  that  observation.  It  is  my  opinion 
that  those  attorneys  who  advise  their  clients  to  take  the  fifth  amend- 
ment are  putting  their  clients  into  a  noose. 

First  of  all,  they  are  throwing  upon  them  the  obvious  color  of  being 
guilty  and,  secondly,  they  are  making  it  difficult  for  them  to  get 
out  when  the  time  comes. 

Practically  all  those  people  are  invited  to  come  to  private  hearings 
of  the  committees  with  their  attorneys  to  discuss  the  matter  with  the 
committees.  In  good  conscience,  a  person  who  is  advising  a  client 
ought  to  only  advise  him  to  take  the  fifth  amendment  when  answering 
will  really  incriminate  him. 

Mr.  Waltek.  That  is  exactly  the  point.  This  committee  never  set 
out  to  put  anj'^body  into  trouble,  and  there  isn't  a  person  who  has 
come  before  this  committee  with  his  or  her  attorney  who  couldn't 
in  an  executive  session,  testify  to  the  things  that  we  feel  would  be  of 
help  to  us  without  having  any  publicity  attendant  to  that  appearance, 
and  it  is  only  because  their  lawyers  don't  cooperate  with  a  duly  con- 
stituted committee  of  this  Government  that  people  get  into  trouble. 

Dr.  Dodd,  May  I  just  say  one  thing  about  the  whole  question  of 
people  being  called  before  the  committees.  The  Communist  Party 
advises  everyone  who  receives  a  subpena  from  any  Government  agency, 
should  it  be  a  person  who  is  connected  with  the  party,  a  member  of 
the  party,  or  one  who  has  worked  with  the  party,  to  get  in  touch  at 
once  with  his  immediate  superior  in  the  party.  Then  he  is  advised  as  to 
which  legal  service  to  get. 

]Mr.  ScHERER.  Usually  a  Communist? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Or  someone — no,  in  many  cases,  lawyers  who  have 
worked  with  the  Communist  Party.  Lawyers  are  men  out  to  make 
a  living. 

Mr.  Waeter.  Maybe  that  accounts  for  the  fact  that  the  same  lawyers 
appear  for  witnesses  before  this  committee  whether  they  come  from 
California  or  Maine. 

Dr.  Dodd.  There  are  certain  lawyers  that  the  Communist  move- 
ment will  use.     Many  of  them  are  not  party  members. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA    1751 

j\Ir.  KuNziG.  You  knew  these  lawyers  since  you,  too,  are  a  lawyer; 
is  tliat  correct? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Walter.  Are  those  lawyers  paid  by  the  Communist  Party? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Many  times  these  lawyers  give  their  services  for  nothing 
in  cases  of  this  kind  because  they  expect  to  get  cases  later  on,  from  the 
trade-union  movements,  the  party  influences,  or  from  various 
other 

Mr.  AValter.  We  have  been  informed  that  most  of  these  lawyers 
charge  $1,500  apiece.  I  don't  know  whether  to  tell  those  people  they 
have  taken  money  under  false  pretense. 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  doubt  tliat.  I  don't  believe  it.  One  thing  about  the 
Communists,  they  don't  squander  money  that  way.  They  squander 
money  only  where  it  is  going  to  tell. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Dr.  Dodd,  you  mentioned  how  difficult  it  was  to  get 
out  of  the  party  and  how  you  are  hounded  and  harassed.  Have  you 
yourself  had  any  personal  experience  along  that  line?  Were  you 
followed,  for  example? 

Dr.  DoDD.  It  took  me  5  years  to  get  out  of  the  Communist  Party 
completely,  and  I  only  got  out  of  the  Comminiist  Party  completely, 
emotionally,  when  I  found  my  way  back  to  my  own  church. 

During  that  time,  I  would  rather  not  talk  about  it.  My  life  was 
one  of  misery.  I  was  hounded,  publicized,  and  given  the  treatment 
that  everybody  gets  who  becomes  a  deserter  from  their  cause. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Were  you  followed  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  was  followed;  my  windows  were  broken;  I  had  my 
clients  taken  away.  They  tried  to  make  it  impossible  for  me  to  make 
a  living.     They  did  everything  they  possibly  could  to ■ 

Mr.  ScHERER.  You  mean  they  engaged  in  blacklisting? 

Mr.  Dodd,  Well,  the  party  itself — I  don't  know  whether  the  party 
at  the  top  echelon  does  it,  but  the  party  consists  of  people  and  the  one 
end  are  a  group  of  crackpots.  The  Comnumist  Party  is  the  only  party 
I  know  that  knows  how  to  use  crackpots.  It  has  many  intelligent 
people,  but  it  has  the  lunatic  fringe.  The  lunatic  fringe  believes 
everything  they  say,  and  if  they  say  that  Bella  Dodd  has  become  a 
Fascist,  as  they  said  in  their  papers,  the  lunatic  fringe  then  takes 
upon  itself  to  take  direct  action. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  You  are  talking  about  newspapers;  you  mean  the 
Daily  W^orker,  the  Communist  papers  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  KuxziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  when  you  broke  with  the  party,  you  obvi- 
ously had  many  friends,  close  friends,  that  you  have  known  over  the 
years.  Did  they  give  you  an  opportunity  to  talk  to  them ;  did  they 
ask  you  why  you  changed,  why  your  viewpoint  was  different?  I 
should  think  they  would. 

Dr.  Dodd.  That  is  one  of  the  real  tragedies  that  I  think  Americans 
need  to  note.  I  worked  with  my  union  for  a  period  of  9  years.  I 
counted  every  one  in  the  union  my  f rien.d.  I  gave  all  my  time  to  the 
union,  all  my  energies  to  the  union.  Hundreds  of  people  visited  my 
home  and  wliose  homes  I  visited. 

Tlie  day  tlie  Communist  Party  expelled  me,  that  was  the  day  which 
I  was  cut  off  from  my  union  and  cut  off  from  all  associations;  even 
close  ijersonal  friends.  They  refused,  then,  to  have  anvthing  to  do 
with  me. 


1752    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

I  found  that  the  union  that  I  had  actually  built  stopped  sending  its 
newspaper  to  me,  dropped  me  from  its  list  of  past  members,  I  have 
never  had  an  invitation  since.  I  never  talked  to  the  people  whom  I 
had  trained  in  union  work,  and  all  the  younger  people  I  had  trained 
for  union  positions.     That  was  the  end. 

If  the  party  says  that  this  person  is  good,  he  is  good ;  if  the  party 
says  this  person  is  bad,  he  is  bad,  regardless  of  your  own  intelligence. 
The  thing  which  struck  me  was  that,  if  the  Communist  movement 
can  do  that  to  human  beings,  that  kind  of  movement  is  extremely  dan- 
gerous. It  is  a  movement  which  uses  mass  hysteria  to  control  peoj)le's 
minds.     It  is  a  movement  which  we  might  well  be  worried  about. 

Mr.  Clardy.  It  "was  that  which  caused  so  much  difficulty,  I  take  it, 
when  the  Hitler-Stalin  pact  was  entered  into?  They  had  them  all  in 
one  direction,  and  overnight,  they  had  to  reverse  their  field  entirely; 
isn't  that  true  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Well,  the  Communist  Party  is  very  successful  at  doing 
that,  however.     It  takes  a  little  time,  but  not  too  long. 

Take,  for  instance  the  question — we  used  to  have  the  American 

League  Against  War  and  Fascism.     We  were  against  war  and  fascism. 

We  were  almost  a  superpacifist  group.     We  picketed  the  White  House 

for  peace. 

Then  came  the  invasion  of  the  Soviet  Union.    Overnight,  we  had  to 

change  the  name  for — the  league's  name 

Mr.  SciTERER.  Could  I  interrupt  because  there  is  some  future  testi- 
mony.    When  was  that  that  you  picketed  the  White  House? 
Dr.  DoDD.  I  picketed  the  White  House  in  1940. 
Mr.  SciiERER.  In  1940  ? 
Dr.  DoDD.  Yes. 

Mr.  SciiERER,  Could  you  fix  that  month ;  that  is  very  important  at 
this  point.  Doctor. 

Dr.  DoDD.  It  was  either  in  the  late  spring  or  early  summer. 
Mr.  ScHERER.  That  is  all. 
Dr.  DoDD.  It  was  in  1940.     I  may  be  in  error. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  That  is  close  enough  for  my  purposes;  I  just  wanted 
to  pinpoint  the  time  that  you  picketed  the  White  House. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  The  invasion,  as  we  all  know,  of  Russia  by  Germany, 
was  in  June  of  1941,  and  that  was  the  time,  I  believe,  not  necessarily 
when  you  were  there,  but  that  was  the  time  when  the  pickets  marching 
around  the  White  House  were  called  home  within  24  hours  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  was  chairman  of  a  trade-union  committee  for  peace.  I 
led  a  lot  of  women  down  there,  and  we  picketed  the  White  House  for 
peace. 

Then  suddenly  we  were  told  we  had  to  be  for  war.  It  took  us  at 
least  2  months  to  wash  out  the  old  idea  and  put  in  the  new  one. 

Mr.  Kdnzig.  Dr.  Dodd,  wliile  you  were  in  New  York,  while  you  were 
a  member  of  the  New  York  State  Committee  of  the  Communist  Party, 
did  you  know  an  individual  by  the  name  of  J.  Peters — and,  before  you 
answer,  I  would  like  to  say  something  on  the  record  about  J.  Peters. 
J.  Peters,  as  you  know,  was  the  author  of  the  instruction  book  on  es- 
pionage. He  has  been  established  as  head  of  the  Soviet-controlled 
espionage  organization  which  operated  in  America.  Did  T'^ou  know 
J.  Peters  ?     If  so,  how  did  you  know  him  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Well,  that  is  an  interesting  question,  because  I  knew 
the  J.  Peters  manual  before ;  I  had  read  it.     It  had  been  given  to  me 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA    1753 

to  read  and  study,  and  I  knew  a  man  by  the  name  of  Steve  Miller,  but 
Steve  Miller  was  an  insignificant  little  fellow  who  used  to  help  with 
mimeographing  at  party  headquarters.  He  was  attached  to  the  New 
York  County  committee.  He  was  assigned  from  time  to  time  to  teach 
communism  to  some  of  the  teachers,  kind  of  take  individual  teachers 
who  were  rising  in  the  party  movement  and  give  them  special  instruc- 
tions. I  thought  he  was  just  an  insignificant  little  fellow  until  one 
day  the  authorities  picked  him  up  and  I  discovered  he  was  J.  Peters. 
He  was  engaged  in  using  teachers  throughout  the  United  States  for 
maildrop  purposes,  for  revoluntionary  mail  that  was  going  back  and 
forth  from  the  Soviet  Union  into  the  United  States. 

They  would  approach  a  pretty  innocent  teacher  who  came  close  to 
the  movement  and  say,  "Would  you  mind  if  a  letter  comes  to  your 
address?" 

Some  mail  would  come  to  someone  in  Columbus  or  Cleveland  or  in 
California  or  in  my  section  of  New  York,  and  the  person  would  have 
no  more  relationship  to  that  mail  than  the  man  in  the  moon. 

That  mail  would  be  mail  which  the  party  was  getting  from  overseas. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  I  would  like  to  turn  to  and  delve  deeper  into 
your  work  in  teachers'  unions. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Mr.  Kunzig,  just  before  we  get  into  that,  could  we 
have  a  5-minute  recess? 

(A  short  recess  was  taken.) 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  We  are  ready  to  begin,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Dr.  Dodd,  I  would  like  to  turn  now  to  putting  a  little  more  emphasis 
on  your  activities  with  teachers,  professors,  and  the  Teachers'  Union. 
Could  you  explain  how  the  Commm lists  got  control  of  the  Teachers' 
Union ;  how  that  was  worked  ? 

Dr.  boDD.  Now,  first  let  me  make  clear,  the  American  Federation 
of  Teachers,  an  A.  F.  of  L.  union,  is  not  a  Communist  organization.  In 
many  cities,  many  towns  and  localities,  you  will  have  teachers'  unions 
which  are  not  Communist.  In  some  cities  and  towns  they  will  have 
no  Communists  in  the  community.  I  don't  want  to  in  any  way  detract 
from  the  efficacy  and  work  the  teachers'  unions  do  throughout  the 
United  States. 

My  association  with  the  teachers'  unions  were  largely  with  the 
teachers'  unions  of  New  York  and  with  some  of  the  people  who 
became  officers  of  the  American  Federation  of  Teachers  during  the 
time  that  I  was  active. 

I  came  to  the  Teachers'  Union  just  naturally  since  I  was  interested 
in  the  conditions  of  work  in  various  colleges  and  universities  around 
New  York.  It  was  natural  that  I  should  help  organize  the  teachers, 
instructors,  professors — largely  the  instructors — tutors,  and  lower 
categories  into  an  association  for  improving  their  conditions. 

One  thing  we  Americans  must  never  overlook  is  that,  where  there 
are  problems,  it  is  our  duty  to  try  to  better  conditions,  to  make  condi- 
tions worth  while  and  consonant  with  the  American  way  of  life. 

I  had  organized  the  instructors  and  tutors  at  Hunter  College  for  the 
purpose  of  getting  tenure  for  those  people.  I  was  interested  in  getting 
permanent  tenure  for  the  people  in  the  City  College.  You  could  be 
fired  at  will.  The  public-school  teachers  didn't  have  tenure,  and  so  I 
had  made  it  my  duty  to  organize  them  for  the  purpose  of  getting 
tenure.    I  achieved  that  purpose.    I  was  able  to  get  a  bill  passed  in  the 


1754     COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA 

State  legislature,  through  some  of  the  members  that  I  knew  in  the 
State  legislature  on  the  education  committee. 

As  soon  as  that  bill  was  passed,  the  Communists  became  very 
friendly  with  me  and  their  next  question  was,  "Why  don't  we  take 
this  organization  into  a  union,''  and  pretty  soon  they  said,  "Of  course, 
the  labor  movement  would  help  the  teachers  get  better  conditions''; 
and,  being  prolabor,  I  said,  "Xo  reason  why  we  shouldn't  join  the 
Teachers'  Union.*' 

The  Teachers'  Union  had  existed  in  New  York  City,  organized  as  a 
protest  against  what  happened  in  the  First  World  War.  We  joined 
that  organization,  but  as  soon  as  1  got  into  that  organization  I 
recognized  that  the  Communists  were  struggling  with  the  non-Com- 
munists in  a  real  fight  for  control.  The  non-Communists  were  not 
very  bright  about  the  struggle,  and  the  Communists  took  over  the 
entire  situation. 

When  I  came  into  the  Teachers'  Union,  because  I  had  that  bill 
passed  on  tenure,  they  asked  me  to  become  a  legislative  representative 
of  the  Teachers'  Union  temporarily. 

Well,  ni}'  temporary  stay  there  developed  into  a  permanent  stay 
because  I  was  elected  every  year.  I  was  elected  because  the  Communists 
supported  me.  The  Communists  within  the  Teachers'  Union  operate 
the  way  they  operate  in  every  other  organization,  every  other  union. 

First,  they  got  rid  of  all  those  who  were  in  opposition  to  Communists. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  How  did  they  get  rid  of  them  ? 

Mr.  DoDD.  Well,  they  got  rid  of  them  by  organization,  and  they  got 
rid  of  them  also  by  using  complete— you  see,  the  first  struggle  w^as 
between  the  Communists — the  Lovestoneites,  Trotskyists,  and  the 
Stalinists.  The  splinter  groups  within  the  Communist  movement 
recognized  what  the  Communists  were. 

First  they  organized  against  them,  and  in  many  cases  they  used 
completely  innocent  people  who  were  not  at  all  geared  to  understand 
this  struggle  that  went  on  in  the  left-wing  movement. 

By  bringing  in  many  people  who  were  not  at  all  geared  to  left-wing 
ideology,  they  organized  and  got  rid  of  the  people  in  the  splinter 
groups.  However,  the  splinter  groups  made  the  mistake  of  becoming 
political  and  not  taking  up  the  issues  of  the  people.  The  Communists 
would  actually  take  a  special  issue  like  better  wages  for  the  substitute 
teachers  and  they  would  make  tliemselves  the  protagonist  for  the 
group  of  underprivileged  people.  In  that  w^ay  they  wiped  out  some 
of  tlie  splinter  groups. 

Once  they  took  control,  it  was  very  hard  for  them  to  be  dislodged 
because  they  would  control  the  executive  board,  the  delegate  assembly., 
they  AYOuld  control  all  the  committees  and  once  you  take  control  of  a 
structui'e  of  an  organization,  it  is  hard  to  be  pushed  out. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  they  then  make  the  Teachers'  Union  work  a  basi& 
for  their  own  purposes  and  functions  and  only  incidentally  for  the- 
good  of  teachers? 

Dr.  DoDD.  One  of  the  things  you  must  understand  about  Marxism' 
and  Leninism  and  I  think  the  trade-union  people  do  understand  this — 
they  didn't  in  the  1930's,  but  they  do  now — 

Lenin  once  said : 

We  are  not  interestPd  in  unions  as  reforming  organizations,  we  are  interested! 
in  unions  as  politicalizing  institutions. 


COMMUXIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA    1755 

In  other  ^YO^ds,  they  regarded  with  contempt  unions  engaged  in 
what  is  called  "economism,''  that  is,  improving  the  economic  conditions. 
It  is  only  important  if  it  can  be  politicalized.  The  Teachers'  Union 
of  New  York  City,  unfortunately,  came  to  be  used  as  a  real  political 
Aveapon  by  the  party,  because  the  Teachers'  Union  was  one  of  the  few 
unions  over  which  they  had  some  control  in  the  A.  F,  of  L.  They  used 
it  on  every  occasion  in  the  State  Federation  and  the  National  Federa- 
tion of  Labor. 

They  used  us  to  get  political  resolution  j^assed.  For  instance,  I  re- 
member in  1938,  the  party  was  very  much  interested  in  unity  between 
the  CIO  and  the  A.  F.  of  L.  Certainly  that  was  a  good  slogan.  When 
they  came  to  me  and  said,  '"Will  you  fight  for  unity  between  the  CIO 
and  the  A.  F.  of  L.,"  I  said,  "Yes." 

They  said,  "Would  you  introduce  a  resolution  on  that  subject  in  the 
Central  Trades  and  Labor  Council?" 

I  said,  "Yes." 

There  were  other  groups  in  the  council  other  than  teachers,  but  the 
teachers  were  compelled  by  the  party  to  introduce  the  resolution  on 
unity  and  call  a  conference  of  all  unions  for  miity  between  the  CIO 
and  the  A.  F.  of  L. 

As  a  result  of  that  conference,  we  were  expelled  from  the  labor 
council — kicked  out  of  the  State  Federation  of  Labor  because  we  had 
acted  on  the  directions  of  the  party. 

As  a  result  of  tliat,  we  developed  many  problems  within  the  Ameri- 
can Federation  of  Teachers.  Finally,  on  the  question  of  peace,  we 
were  going  along,  the  New  York  locals,  the  New  York  Teachers' 
Union,  the  WPA  local,  plus  some  of  the  Pennsylvania  and  Philadel- 
phia and  New  Jersey  locals  were  going  along  on  the  party's  fight  for 
peace.  We  opposed  aid  to  England  and  France,  and  a  struggle  de- 
veloped in  the  American  Federation  of  Teachers  between  the  pro- 
Communists  and  the  anti-Communists. 

As  a  result  of  that,  we  were  expelled  from  the  American  Federation 
of  Teachers  because  we  had  fought  so  strongly  for  the  peace  programs 
that  the  party  insisted  upon. 

In  other  words,  they  used  our  union  not  to  help  the  members  to  get 
better  conditions,  but  they  used  it  largely  as  a  political  wedge  for  the 
purpose  of  bringing  forth  political  ideas. 

Mr.  W^ALTER.  Dr.  Dodd,  do  I  understand  you  to  mean  that  the 
Communists  are  not  interested  in  the  economic  conditions  of  the 
workers  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  They  are  interested  in  that  insofar  as  they  can  use  the 
slogans  to  attract  thousands  of  people  and  bring  thern  under  their 
influence. 

Mr.  Walter.  In  other  words,  their  sole  interest  is  political? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Their  main  interest  is  political.  Actually,  if  they  have 
to  cut  down  on  the  benefits  of  the  workers  if  a  political  problem  is 
paramount,  they  will  cut  down  on  the  economic  interests  of  the 
Avorkers. 

For  instance,  you  take  the  question  of  the  Negro  people.  During 
the  World  War,  the  Communists,  since  we  were  fighting  with  Russia, 
since  we  were  so  much  concerned  about  winning  that  war  and  protect- 
ing the  Soviet  Union  particularly,  that  we  were  not  interested,  for 
instance,  in  improving  the  conditions  of  the  Negro  people  in  the 
Armed  Forces  or  the  Negro  people  in  the  trade  unions.     It  was  a 


1756    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

"natural"  at  that  particular  time  during  the  war  when  there  was  a 
manpower  shortage  for  the  party  to  bring  forth  slogans  to  improve 
the  conditions  of  the  Negro  people  in  the  industries,  in  the  trade 
unions,  and  in  the  Armed  Forces,  but  the  Communist  Party  advised, 
as  a  matter  of  fact,  it  penalized  certain  people  for  bringing  forth  those 
slogans.  They  said  that  those  slogans  were  not  to  be  brought  forth  in 
the  midst  of  a  political  struggle. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  They  were  interested  in  the  problems  of  minority' 
groups  generally  in  order  to  attract  them  to  the  Communist  cause? 

Dr.  DoDD.  There  is  no  more  depressing  problem  than  the  way  the 
party  uses  the  minority  groups  for  the  purpose  of  creating  chaos  and 
division  among  the  people,  creating  fear  and  hatred  among  them- 
selves in  order  that  the  many  Communist  organizations  may  promote 
the  things  in  which  they  are  interested. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  At  one  time,  the  Communist  Party  was  opposed  to 
anti-Semitism,  is  that  right? 

Dr.  DoDD.  The  Communist  Party  has  always  claimed  it  is  against 
anti-Semitism,  but  at  one  time,  it  will  support  the  establishment  of  an 
Israeli  state  and  another  time  be  against  it.  It  depends  on  which 
way  the  Soviet  policy  is  going  whether  it  is  for  the  establishment  of 
the  Israeli  Government. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Today  the  Communist  Party  is  violently  anti- 
Semitic,  isn't  it? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Let  me  just  put  it  this  way.  Congressman  Scherer,  to  be 
fair,  publicly  they  will  say  they  are  against  it,  but  when  the  question 
arose,  when  the  10  or  12  doctors  were  arrested — what  happened  in 
the  Daily  Worker,  the  unit  which  gives  the  line  out  to  the  party  peo- 
ple— the  Daily  Worker  began  using  the  same  kind  of  lies  which  Fascist 
minded  people  might  be  using  against  the  Jewish  people.  They  kept 
saying,  "Of  course,  there  are  Jews  down  in  Wall  Street,  and  there- 
fore the  doctors  in  the  Soviet  Union  must  be  the  same  type  of  charac- 
ters as  those  people." 

In  other  words,  they  mouthed  the  same  kind  of  anti-Semitism  which 
we  hear  from  people  who  are  a  real  menace. 

Mr.  Scherer.  The  Kremlin  today  is  taking  the  position  against  the 
Jews  because  it  wants  to  court  the  favor  of  the  Arabs,  doesn't  it  ?  The 
Russians  are  interested,  perhaps,  in  Arabian  oil? 

Dr.  DoDD.  There  is  no  doubt  in  my  mind  that  the  Communist  Party 
in  America  is  trying  to  hold  onto  its  slogan  of  being  against  anti- 
Semitism  because  it  recognizes  that  Americans  basically  are  against 
discrimination,  but  they  will  follow  whatever  line  the  Kremlin  gives 
them. 

If  the  Kremlin  is  interested  in  wooing  the  Arabs,  they  will  follow 
that  line,  but  they  will  confuse  it  sufficiently  so  that  people  in  America 
don't  know  where  they  stand. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  just  as  a  matter  of  interest,  didn't  the  Daily 
Worker,  after  the  doctors  were  set  free,  say,  "This  shows  how  fair 
justice  is,"  just  a  few  weeks  after  they  denounced  the  same  doctors? 
•  Dr.  DoDD.  No  doubt  about  that. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  About  how  many  Communist  teachers  would  you  say, 
within  your  knowledge,  are  there  in  the  United  States? 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  have  no  knowledge  now,  but  at  the  time  I  had  knowl- 
edge, I  would  say  conservatively,  we  had  about  1,500  members  of  the 
Communist  Party. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1757 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Is  it  possible  for  you  to  say,  at  least  roughly,  how  many 
mioht  have  been  in  the  State  of  Ohio? 

Dr.  DoDD.  It  is  impossible  for  me  to  say  how  many  in  the  State  of 
Ohio.  I  only  knew  of  2  or  3  people  in  the  State  of  Ohio  and  the 
reason  is  that  information  of  that  kind  is  never  made  available  to  any- 
one. It  was  decentralized  and  kept  in  the  hands  of  the  professional 
j)eople  themselves. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  suggesting  that  professional  people  and 
teachers  are  handled  in  a  special  way  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes,  I  said  in  the  very  beginning 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Could  you  explain  that  for  us  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  The  party  is  very  zealous  in  protecting  the  names  of 
people  in  the  professional  groups,  in  the  civil  service,  in  government, 
in  the  State  or  National  legislatures.  They  will  say  people  are  friends 
of  the  party,  but  they  will  not  say  that  they  are  members  of  the 
party,  and  their  cards,  if  there  are  cards  in  that  locality,  will  be  held 
by  the  party  at  the  head  of  the  group  and  not  given  to  the  secretary  of 
the  party. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  If  there  was  a  professor  in  a  college  anywhere,  in  Los 
Angeles,  Philadelphia,  Columbus,  Ohio,  for  example,  his  Communist 
Party  membership  and  his  participation  in  Communist  activities 
w^ould  be  kept  on  a  highly  secret  level  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes,  it  would. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  you  know  that  of  your  own  knowledge,  from 
your  own  experience  in  that  party  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  instructions,  would  you  say,  Dr.  Dodd,  would 
the  party  give  him,  this  mythical  Communist  teacher  or  professor  with 
regard  to  his  own  activities? 

Dr.  DoDD.  If  thej  regarded  him  as  an  important  person,  they  would 
tell  him  not  to  admit  that  he  is  a  Communist  Party  member,  and  that 
he  is  to  get  instructions.  Sometimes  he  met  with  a  unit  of  2,  3,  4,  5,  6, 
or  7  people;  sometimes  not  with  a  unit,  but  with  one  person  from  the 
party  headquarters  who  would  bring  him  literature,  give  him  instruc- 
tions. Any  time  he  had  problems,  he  would  go  to  that  person  and 
pay  his  dues  to  that  person. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  How  was  he  supposed  to  act  with  regard  to  outside 
organizations,  with  special  reference  to  his  membership  in  different 
groups  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Communism  is  like  a  religion.  President  Eisenhower 
said  that  the  other  day,  but  it  is  a  religion  without  a  God.  If  you 
believe  strongly  in  communism,  it  is  your  duty  to  bring  it  into  every 
phase  of  your  life. 

If  you  are  a  member  of  the  American  Association  of  University  Pro- 
fessors, if  you  are  a  member  of  the  association  of  your  specialty,  such 
as  a  member  of  the  mathematical  association,  it  is  your  duty  to  bring 
the  party  line  into  those  organizations. 

If  you  are  a  member  of  a  fraternity,  you  are  supposed  to  bring  it  into 
the  fraternity,  into  any  group  where  there  is  the  privilege  of  discus- 
sion. If  you  are  a  teacher,  you  are  supposed  to  live  by  the  principles  of 
Marxism  and  Leninism.  You  are  not  supposed,  of  course,  to  get  your- 
self in  trouble.  The  party  warns  you  not  to  get  your  head  knocked  off ; 
it  warns  you  to  stay  within  security  and  remain  on  your  job. 


1758     COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES   IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  yon  explain  to  us  perhaps  in  a  little  bit  more 
detail,  so  that  it  is  perfectly  clear  what  you  mean  exactly  by  "party 
line"  and  what  you  mean  particularly  when  you  talk  about  party 
discipline. 

Dr.  DoDD.  Well,  the  party  line,  of  course,  is  a  rough  translation  of 
fhe  tactics  of  the  party. 

You  know  there  is  a  strategy  of  the  party  and  tactics  of  the  party. 
The  strategy  of  the  party  is  world  revolution.  In  a  country  like  the 
United  States  which  is  in  preparation,  a  non-Communist  country,  this 
country  is  being  prepared  for  revolution.  The  revolution  may  not  be 
a  bloody  one,  it  may  be  like  the  one  they  had  in  Czechoslovakia  ^^■here 
they  opened  the  doors  to  the  Soviet  Union.  A  party  line  is  the  tactic 
of  the  party.  The  tactic  is  the  program  that  changes  day  by  day  that 
the  party  makes  in  order  to  advance  its  strategy  or  its  ultimate 
objective. 

The  tactics  may  mean  today  we  may  be  friendly  with  the  CIO. 
Tomorrow  we  may  be  fighting  the  CIO.  Today  we  may  be  for  peace, 
tomorrow  we  may  be  for  war.     That  is,  the  party  line  shifts  constantly. 

Today  we  may  support  coalition  with  the  Democratic  Party,  tomor- 
row, a  party  of  our  own. 

Those  are  the  tactical  changes  and  tliey  change  as  they  feel  the  ])ulse 
of  tlie  country.  They  are  very  astute  about  taking  the  pulse  of  the 
people  of  this  Nation  and  depending  on  what  the  pulse  tells  them,  they 
form  their  party  line.  Their  line  is  the  tactic  which  is  followed  and 
the  tactic  is  to  promote  the  strategy. 

It  is  also  in  line  with  the  ultimate  objective  of  taking  this  country 
or  any  other  country  into  revolution  or  into  the  world  Communist  fold, 

Mr.  Walter.  May  I  interrupt  you  at  this  point.  Doctor?  Isn't  it 
a  fact  that  since  the  expulsion  of  the  Trotskyists  in  1928  or  1929,  the 
tactics  have  been  directed  from  Eussia  so  that  whatever  the  tactics  are 
in  this  country,  they  get  the  directions  from  Russia? 

Dr.  DoDD.  There  is  no  doubt,  at  first,  the  Third  International,  the 
Comintern,  which  w^as  in  existence  at  that  time,  laid  down  the  policy 
for  all  the  world  Communist  Parties.  For  instance,  the  seventh  world 
congress  of  the  Comintern  laid  down  the  policy  of  the  united  front, 
laying  down  the  anti-Fascist,  united-front  tactic  of  fighting  the 
Fascists. 

Then  when  the  Soviet-Nazi  pact  was  formed,  we  had  to  have  a  new 
line  of  approach  which  was,  everything  which  would  strengthen  the 
Soviet  Union  was  good  for  the  working  class  all  over  the  world — even 
unity  with  the  Nazis. 

Of  course,  when  the  Soviet  Union  was  attacked  by  the  Nazis,  there 
Avas  the  slogan  of  saving  democracy.  Then  the  United  States,  France, 
England,  China,  and  the  Soviet  Union  became  the  great  democracies. 

When  in  1945,  the  policy  in  Russia  was  changed — at  that  time  the 
Comintern  had  been  abolished  as  a  concession,  I  think,  to  the  United 
States — because  tlie  United  States  said.  "All  right,  we  will  have  co- 
existence, but  we  don't  want  any  Comintern  directing  the  Commu- 
nist Party  in  the  ITnited  States."  Then  in  1945,  the  Soviet  Union 
changed  its  line,  which  was  not  announced  to  the  entire  world,  but  came 
in  the  form  of  the  Duclos  letter  to  the  Communist  Party  of  the  United 
States.  No  tactics  for  United  States  Communists  from  1929  on  were 
made  by  the  Communist  Party  of  the  United  States. 


COIVIMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1759 

That  doesn't  mean  tliat  tlie  average  Connnnnist  teacher  was  aware 
'of  that.  We  were  also  told  that  the  party  here  was  an  indigenous 
radical  party  to  support  and  promote  the  welfare  of  the  American 
people.  Most  of  us  believed  that.  I  want  to  get  that  on  the  record  in 
all  fairness. 

People  Avho  were  sucked  into  this  moveinent,  most  of  us  believed  it, 
until  we  stopped  and  began  thinking  contrary  to  the  collective  think- 
ing that  the  Communist  Party  imposed  on  us. 

Mr.  Clardy.  The  Duclos  letter  was  obviously  started  on  its  journey 
from  Russia  and  brought  the  message  tliat  the  line  had  been  changed 
•and  you  should  move  in  the  opposite  direction,  but  it  came  initially 
via  France  from  Russia. 

Dr.  DoDD.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  you  have  been  talking  about  party  line. 
'Gould  you  go  into  a  little  more  detail  on  discipline  and  how  it  oper- 
:ates? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Discipline  in  the  Communist  Party  is  very  strict.  It  is 
a  strange  kind  of  thing.  You  wonder  why  many  Americans  who  are 
so  accustomed  to  liberty  would  accede  to  the  discipline. 

Actually,  if  we  believe  a  thing  to  be  right,  we  want  discipline.  So, 
tfor  instance,  many  Communists  are  held  in  line  by  the  disciplinary 
-actions  of  the  Communist  Party.  Disciplinary  action  means  that  you 
are  called  before  a  board. 

You  see,  the  Communist  movement  has  within  itself  its  own  police 
'System,  its  own  security  committees.  xVs  a  matter  of  fact,  it  has  an 
■equivalent  of  all  the  protective  agencies  which  the  Government  has. 
It  has  its  oMn  security  system,  its  own  detectives,  its  own  spy  ap- 
paratus to  see  that  the  Communist  members  in  key  positions  are  not 
•double  crossing  the  party. 

Mr.  KuxziG.  Were  you  ever  called  before  one  of  tl;ose  control  com- 
missions ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Well,  in  1945  and  19-18,  I  was  called  before  three  control 
'Commissions. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  happened?  I  think  we  would  all  be  interested 
in  knowing  what  happened  at  a  meeting  before  a  control  commission. 

Dr.  Dodd.  First  of  all,  they  have  information  on  what  you  have  been 
doing. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  mean  they  had  informers  to  tell  them  what  you 
liad  been  doing? 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Stool  pigeons? 

Dr.  Dodd.  For  instance,  my  secretary  who  happened  to  be  a  mem- 
ber of  the  Communist  Party,  my  secretary  in  my  law  office— my  office 
unfortunately  came  to  be  a  place  where  people  who  were  unhappy  in 
the  pai'ty  began  to  drop  in  and  say  they  were  unhappy. 

Mr.  KuxzTG.  Was  that  because  you  were  becoming  unhappy? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Well,  I  wasn't  austere.  I  had  a  humanist  approach  to 
life. 

What  happened  was  that  I  would  pat  them  on  the  back  and  tell 
them  not  to  be  unhappy  about  their  work.  I  would  just  kind  of 
cheer  them  on.  I  told  them  that  many  problems  had  arisen,  just  to 
sit  still  and  wait,  things  might  clear  themselves  up,  but  what  hap- 
pened was  that  my  secretary  liad  letters — any  letters  I  had  writtpii 
to  anybody — she  would  take  letters  out  of  mv  files. 


1760    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

She  had  given  testimony  to  the  party  and  I  was  charged  with  some 
of  the  things  which  I  was  supposed  to  have  said  in  my  office. 

At  that  time  I  was  trying  to  pull  out  of  the  party.  I  recognized 
I  was  in  the  wrong  pew.  I  recognized  that  there  was  danger  but  I 
didn't  know  how  to  get  out.  In  my  struggle  to  get  out,  I  said  certain 
things  which  were  public. 

Of  course,  certain  people  stayed  at  my  home  and  I  remember  there 
was  one  old  seaman  who  stayed  at  my  home  because  he  had  no  place 
to  go,  he  was  ill  between  trips  and  he  had  been  called  down  to  the 
waterfront  section.  They  had  taken  testimony  from  him  on  me.  He 
came  back  and  said  he  didn't  know  why  they  were  writing  everything 
he  said  down. 

All  this  testimony  was  used  on  the  three  occasions.  All  three 
times,  I  said,  "Look,  all  I  want  to  do  is  to  practice  law.  Leave  me 
alone.  I  will  be  a  member  of  the  committee  until  you  select  someone 
else  to  take  my  place." 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  they  threaten  you  at  these  hearings? 

Dr.  DoDD.  No,  no,  the  gentlemen  in  charge  of  those  committees — 
they  might  others,  but  they  didn't  threaten  me.  I  have  known  of 
others  like  Johnny  Lautner,  who  were  threatened,  but  I  was  not.  All 
they  did  was  ask  pertinent  questions.  I  wondered  where  they  got  the 
information.  For  instance,  I  made  a  speech  at  a  branch  meeting  in 
1947  about  the  establishment  of  the  Cominform.  That  was  estab- 
lished as  a  substitute  for  the  Comintern,  for  the  countries  of  Europe, 
and  I  had  made  a  speech  in  which  I  had  made  a  remark  about  it,  and 
that  remark  had  been  taken  to  headquarters  and  repeated.  I  was 
charged  with  it. 

They  didn't  say  anything.  They  just  asked  me  questions,  and  then 
they  let  me  go,  but  I  knew  then  that  something  was  in  the  works. 

Mr.  Clardt.  Then,  when  the  Communist  Party  or  its  members 
begin  screaming  about  the  method  that  this  or  other  committees  may 
use  in  having  hearings,  they  are  a  little  hypocritical ;  aren't  they  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Oh,  you  gentlemen  of  the  congressional  committees 
don't  begin  to  approach  the  tactics  which  they  have  in  keeping  their 
organization  from  being  attacked  by  those  who  infiltrate  it. 

Mr.  Clardt.  Are  they  careful  to  respect  the  thing  we  call  academic 
freedom  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  There  is  only  one  academic  freedom  to  them,  that  is 
loyalty  to  the  Communist  Party.  There  is  no  room  for  a  difference 
of  opinion. 

Mr.  Clardt.  You  agree  or  else  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNZTG.  For  a  moment,  getting  away  from  teachers,  is  it 
your  opinion  from  your  own  personal  experience  that  hearings  by  leg- 
islative committees  such  as  this  one  or  such  as  the  Ohio  Committee 
hurt  the  Communist  movement? 

Dr.  DoDD.  There  is  no  doubt  in  my  mind  that  if  we  can  get  before 
the  public  for  thinking  Americans  the  pattern  of  how  this  thing 
happens  we  are  going  to  help  to  eradicate  this  danger  from  the  Amer- 
ican scene. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  You  are  giving  us  that  pattern  very  ably  this  morn- 
ing, Doctor,  I  am  sure. 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  think  that  is  all  I  can  do.  I  am  not  here  to  hurt  any- 
one.    I  am  not  here  to  hound  anyone.     I  am  here  to  help  the  American 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1761 

people  understand  how  this  thing  works.  '\^nien  they  are  approached 
to  sign  a  petition  or  to  join  a  committee,  they  must  ask  themselves  not 
only,  "Is  this  immediately  good,  but  in  whose  interest  is  this  being  done 
and  by  whom?" 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  From  your  own  experience  and  from  practical  exam- 
ples, could  you  explain  how  hearings  by  the  House  Committee  on  Un- 
American  Activities,  for  example,  how  they  have  hurt  the  Communist 
cavise  and  have  aided  Communists  to  perhaps  leave  the  party  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Well,  first  of  all,  of  course,  I  don't  think  anyone  in 
America — I  am  certain  no  one  in  our  Congress  would  be  opposed  to  a 
man  who  got  up  and  said,  "Look,  I  am  a  Communist.  This  is  what  I 
believe." 

No  matter  how  unpopular  his  beliefs  are,  I  am  certain  that  you 
would  protect  his  right  to  believe  them.  The  thing  which  has  made 
this  so  dangerous  is  that  a  man  gets  up  and  says,  "I  am  a  Democrat," 
or  "I  am  a  Republican.  I  believe  in  the  thing  called  Americanism," 
and  then  he  proceeds  to  put  in  the  party  line. 

A  country  has  a  right  to  defend  itself,  and  that  is  exactly  what  I 
think  these  committees  are  doing.  I  think  they  are  exposing  the  way 
the  pattern  works  and  also  taking  the  leading  actors  in  the  drama 
and  making  it  impossible  for  them  to  work  any  further.  It  doesn't 
mean  you  are  going  to  work  on  everybody  in  the  conspiracy,  but  you 
uumobilize  certain  people. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  We  immobilize  certain  Communist-front  organiza- 
tions by  designating  them  as  such.  Then  contributions  from  well- 
meaning  people  stop. 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  think  that  is  true  also. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Communists  fight  back  against  legislative  committees 
because  the  committees  really  hurt  them  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  There  is  no  doubt  about  that. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  they  fight  back  by  methods  of  fear,  and  if  so,  will 
you  explain  how  that  is  done  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Anyone  who  opposes  the  Communist  line,  anyone  who  is 
going  to  hurt  them  in  any  way,  is  bound  to  get  the  full  impact  of  the 
attacks  of  the  Communists  plus  all  of  their  friends. 

The  attack  is  always  in  high-sounding  words.  The  congressional 
committees  of  the  United  States  Government  become  the  agents  of 
Fascists,  and  therefore,  everyone  is  asked  to  organize  against  the 
"agents  of  fascism." 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  mean  that  is  what  the  Communists  say  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  That  is  what  the  Communists  say. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  That  is  "mild,"  Doctor,  anyone  who  opposes  them  is 
called  a  Fascist  or  an  America  Firster. 

Dr.  DoDD.  Or  it  becomes  a  McCarranite,  or  a  McCarthyite. 

Let  me  assure  you  that  these  are  just  general  smear  words.  They 
are  emotional  words.  They  are  words  which  have  no  definition,  and 
first  you  create  a  sense  of  fear  and  hatred  and  then  you  apply  this 
word  to  everyone  against  you. 

The  Communist  movement  is  a  highly  centralized  and  highly  or- 
ganized movement.  One  of  the  reasons  why  they  have  had  such  as- 
tounding success  in  countries  even  like  the  United  States — J.  Edgar 
Hoover  says  there  are  25,000.  William  Z.  Foster,  head  of  the  party, 
says  there  are  70,000.  Whether  it  is  25,000  or  70,000,  that  is  a  small 
number  in  comparison  with  160  million  Americans.     Twenty  thou- 


1762     COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA 

sand  Communists  highly  organized  and  placed  in  key  positions,  can 
create  a  tremendous  amount  of  difficulty. 

In  smearing  a  committee  such  as  your  committee,  what  is  done  is 
this :  First,  you  have  to  get  the  Communist  Party  in  opposition.  Then 
every  trade  union  where  there  are  Communists  is  immediately  started 
to  put  out  the  line  that  if  the  attack  is  against  the  Communists,  the 
next  attack  will  be  against  labor.  They  get  the  trade  unions  to  pass 
resolutions  against  anything  that  is  against  Communists.  Then,  they 
go  into  women's  organizations  and  minority  group  organizations, 
the  Negro  people,  the  Jewish  people,  the  foreign-born  people,  and  stir 
them  up.  They  charge  that  these  committees  are  intended  to  annihi- 
late them,  and,  therefore,  they  had  better  pass  the  resolution  against 
investigations. 

The  Communists  do  have  representation  in  practically  every  key 
area  in  America,  in  scientific  societies,  in  intellectual  circles,  women's 
clubs,  trade  unions,  and  these  organizations  are  all  then  made  to  adopt 
the  resolutions  against  them. 

How  do  they  promote  this  resolution?  First,  they  will  get  some- 
one to  make  a  statement.  They  get  a  Communist  not  known  as  a 
Communist.  Take  a  person,  let  say  a  person  wdio  is  outstanding  in 
religious  fields  or  educational  fields.     He  will  write 

]\[r.  KuNziG.  You  mean  a  Communist  outstanding  in  a  religious 
field? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Might  be. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  see, 

Mr.  Clardy.  But  you  say  one  not  known  as  a  Communist  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  An  outstanding  professor  not  known  as  a  Comnuniist. 
He  and  2  or  3  othere  will  then  get  a  telegram  saying,  "We  are  opposed 
to  the  investigation  of  this  committee.  It  promotes  the  interest  of  the 
McCarthyites,  and  so  on  and  so  forth." 

Then,  that  telegram  is  sent  to,  let's  say,  a  thousand  other  people. 
They  have  lists.  I  have  had  them  myself,  lists  of  ministers,  doctors, 
lawyers,  and  others. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  You  mean  the  lists  are  in  the  party  headquarters  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Lists  are  in  party  headquarters  and  in  some  of  the  front 
committees,  which  they  have  established  like  the  American  Committee 
for  Democracy  and  Intellectual  Freedom,  run  by  a  secretary  who  is 
a  member  of  the  Communist  Party. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Are  you  talking  about  a  list  of  Communists  or  non- 
Commvniists  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  There  will  be  a  list  of  both,  non-Communists  and  Com- 
munists, predominantly  non-Communists,  but  people  who  they  can 
use  from  time  to  time  to  respond  to  various  causes. 

Mr.  Clakdy.  People,  you  mean,  who  are  occupying  positions  of 
some  importance  so  that  their  ideas  will  carry  weight? 

Dr.  DoDD.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Give  us  such  names. 

Dr.  Dodo.  The  American  Committee  for  Democracy  and  Intellectual 
Freedom   liad   its  headcjuarters   in   New   York   City.     Its   secretary 
was  a  young  man  by  the  name  of  Moe  Finklestein.     He  was  a  very 
outstanding  scholar,  a  history  teacher.     He  was  the  secretary  of  this- 
connnittee.     He  had  lists  of  all  the  college  professors,  doctors,  lawyers^, 
and  what  not,  who  belonged  to  his  committee.     Most  of  them  were 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA    1763 

not  Communists,  but  what  lie  would  do  was  to  get  2  or  3  Communist 
Party  people  to  draft  a  telegram  or  draft  a  letter  and  say,  "Will  you 
join  with  me  in  sending  the  following  message  to  the  President  of  the 
United  States?''  Or  a  letter  to  the  Congress,  or  to  the  regents  of  the 
State  Board  of  Education  of  New  York. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Did  they  use  this  procedure  you  are  describing  when 
they  wanted  to  smear  somebody  in  public  life,  or  as  you  said  before, 
get  rid  of  people  in  the  Teachers"  Union  who  were  opposed  to  the 
Connnunist  program  ? 

Dr.  DoDxi.  They  would  use  it. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  That  same  tactic  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  They  would  use  the  tactic  both  as  a  method  of  creating 
public  opinion  for  something  that  they  wanted  and  creating  public 
opinion  violently  against  either  individuals  or  a  line. 

Mr.  Walter.  Now,  perhaps  what  you  say,  what  you  have  just  testi- 
fied to  offers  an  explanation  for  the  action  taken  by  the  CIO  at  its 
national  convention  where  it  adopted  the  resolution : 

The  repeal  of  the  McCarran-Walter  Act  on  the  grounds  that  it  was  an  anti- 
Catholic,  and  anti-Semitic  action. 

At  hearings  held  in  Washington  last  week  on  other  legislation,  it 
was  the  privilege  of  the  Committee  on  Immigration  to  hear  the  testi- 
mony of  Monsignor  Swanstrom,  a  very  prominent  Catholic  clergy- 
man. He  was  asked  the  question  whether  or  not  the  immigration  law 
was  anti-Catholic  and  he  said  it  was  certainly  not,  and  he  had  never 
even  heard  the  charge  made  that  it  was. 

The  following  day.  Congressman  Javits,  a  Republican  from  New 
York,  testifying  on  behalf  of  all  the  Jewish  organizations  on  this 
same  measure  was  asked  the  question  of  wherein  is  this  legislation 
anti-Semitic  and  he  said,  "In  no  respect  whatsoever." 

In  view  of  the  fact  that  these  two  very  prominent  men  in  the 
Catholic  and  Jewish  religions  have  testified  that  this  law  is  not  anti- 
Catholic  or  anti-Semitic,  I  am  wondering  why  and  how  the  CIO 
adopted  a  resolution  in  which  the  charge  was  made  that  it  was. 

Perhaps  you  have  today  given  us  the  explanation. 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  can't  speak  for  the  CIO.  I  don't  know  why  they 
adopted  it,  but  I  certainly  agree  with  both  the  statements  you  have 
had  on  the  Walter-McCarran  Act. 

Mr.  SciiERER.  We  interrupted  you,  and  I  started  it,  when  you  were 
beginning  to  tell  us  the  mechanics  of  getting  out  these  telegrams,  these 
petitions  and  resolutions,  either  to  promote  a  cause  or  to  smear  an 
individual  or  a  cause. 

Dr.  DoDD.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  You  got  as  far  as  saying  that  a  group  of  Communists 
or  non-Communists  would  get  together  and  initiate  a  telegram  or  a 
resolution. 

Now,  would  you  continue  from  there,  because  it  is  important. 

Dr.  DoDD.  The  secretary  of  the  committee  would  send  out  the  letter 
or  the  telegram  or  resolution  to  a  thousand  people,  fifteen  hundred, 
two  thousand,  and  say,  "Wire  collect  whether  we  may  use  vonr  namft 
on  tlie  list." 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Many  of  these  were  perfectly  good  citizens? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes,  and  the  telegrams  would  be  so  framed  that  any 
intelligent  person  might  go  along  with  it.     The  telegram  would  be 


-to-' 


1764    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

SO  framed  that  it  would  be  semiambiguous,  but  when  the  newspaper 
story  was  written,  it  would  be  written  by  the  secretary  of  the  commit- 
tee. He  would  then  say,  "Five  thousand  people  signed  a  letter  pro- 
testing thus  and  thus,"  and  at  that  time  the  story  would  be  angled 
though  the  telegram  itself  might  be  mild.  The  story  would  be  given 
a  greater  slant  in  the  direction  they  wanted  it  to  go. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  And  these  people  who  were  called  upon  to  sign  this 
telegram  or  go  along  with  this  resolution  were  usually  members  of  the 
various  Communist-front  organizations? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Some  of  them  were,  some  of  them  were  just  people  in 
key  positions  who  had  in  the  past  done  something  which  was  liberal 
or  which  they  regard  as  liberal  or  progressive. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Would  you  say  the  series  of  lists  were  "sucker  lists" 
that  they  could  count  on  to  respond  when  the  button  was  pressed  at 
Communist  headquarters? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Practically  all  the  organizations  through  which  the  party 
works,  whether  a  political  action  committee  or  a  committee  for  cul- 
tural freedom — I  don't  mean  to  imply  the  last  one,  but  there  were 
committees  of  that  kind — practically  all  of  these  committees  which 
were  operated  by  some  one  Communist  Party  member  on  them  had 
lists  of  people  to  whom  they  could  appeal  with  telegrams  of  one  kind 
or  another. 

There  were  different  lists  for  different  purposes. 

Mr,  Clardy.  People  they  felt  they  could  rely  on  to  respond? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  Was  Franz  Boas — was  he  a  Communist  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  He  was  not  a  member,  but  Moe  Finklestein  was  the  secre- 
tary of  the  committee. 

Mr.  Walter.  He  was  running  the  show  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Dr.  Boas  was  a  man  of  deep  convictions  about  discrimi- 
nation and  things  of  that  kind,  but  the  work  of  the  party  was  done  by 
the  people  who  were  doers  on  the  committee. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Can  you  name  some  people  who  might  be  perfectly 
decent  people  who  were  on  these  "sucker"  lists  and  who  would 
respond  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  You  probably  know  those  names  better  than  I  do.  They 
are  the  leading  intellectuals  of  America,  leading  people  of  America. 
Christian  Gauss,  of  Princeton  University,  was  on  that  list.  People 
like  Einstein  were  on  that  list. 

It  is  the  list  of  the  leading  intellectuals  in  America  who  would  be 
sent  these  telegrams.  Sometimes  they  responded,  sometimes  they 
didn't. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  remember  on  one  occasion  there  was  an  automobile 
accident  in  Pittsburgh,  and  the  local  police  came  out  with  a  lot  of 
names  which  this  committee  went  over  and  never  made  public,  but 
among  them  were  60  or  70  of  the  most  prominent  clergymen  in  western 
Pennsylvania,  priests,  rabbis,  and  everybody  else  on  the  "sucker"  list. 

Dr.  DoDD.  Sometimes  they  would  send  telegrams  which  said,  "If 
we  don't  hear  from  you,  we  will  add  your  name  to  the  list." 

Sometimes  they  got  protests  because  they  acted  too  fast. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Well,  Dr.  Dodd,  you  talk  about  these  names  and  how 
they  were  gotten  together.  Were  some  of  them  ever  used  without  the 
consent  of  the  particular  person  whose  name  was  being  used? 


COMMinsriST  activities  in  the  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1765 

Dr.  DoDD.  As  I  said,  sometimes  the  telegram  was  sent  saying,  "If 
we  don't  hear  from  you,  we  will  add  your  name  to  the  telegram." 

I  think  sometimes  people  were  quoted  without  giving  permission. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  I  interpret  what  you  say  correctly  that  the  respon- 
sibility really  in  this  type  of  situation  falls  on  the  individual  citizen, 
who  should  think  carefully  before  he  leaps,  so  to  speak? 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  think  there  is  a  responsibility  at  present  in  America, 
the  intellectuals,  the  professional  people  in  America  have  a  special 
responsibility  because  they  are  the  ones  who  have  been  used.  They 
have  a  special  responsibility  not  to  endorse  telegrams,  letters,  or  reso- 
lutions unless  they  know  where  it  comes  from  and  to  what  end  it  is 
going  to  be  used  because  they  are  being  used  to  confuse  the  American 
public.  They  are  being  used  in  order  to  divide  and  to  confuse  and 
to  create  chaos  in  American  public  opinion. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Your  description  of  this  fantastic  organization  that 
the  Communist  Party  has  put  together  to  influence  people  who  are 
not  Communists  is  most  interesting.  Would  you  say  it  therefore 
follows  that  anti-Communists  and  people  fighting  against  communism 
are  not  as  well  organized  as  Communists  are? 

Dr.  DoDD.  There  is  no  doubt  in  my  mind  that  the  reason  which 
explains  the  tremendous  success  of  the  Communists  in  this  country 
and  throughout  the  world  lies  only  in  one  fact.  We  have  a  doctrine 
of  life  which  is  every  bit  as  good  as,  and  infinitely  superior  to,  the 
doctrine  of  life  of  the  Communists.  The  essence  of  the  Constitution 
and  the  Declaration  of  Independence — there  is  nothing  superior  to 
that. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Don't  we  have  one  other  factor?  Don't  we  have  a 
belief  in  God  which  they  don't  have  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  That  is  right.  The  Declaration  says,  we  hold  these 
truths  to  be  self  evident,  that  all  men  are  created  equal.  They  are 
endowed  by  the  Creator  with  certain  inalienable  rights.  The  Creator 
gave  them  these  rights. 

There  are  also  the  doctrines  which  we  have  which  are  superior  to 
the  Communist  doctrine.  The  reason  why  we  are  losing  out  and  they 
are  gaining  is  that  you  have  to  have  an  organized  agency  for  the 
purpose  of  supporting  the  thing  which  you  are  interested  in.  The 
Communists  have  it,  a  highly  centralized,  highly  organized,  highly 
articulate  agency  with  plenty  of  money,  whereas  we  are  leading  our 
laissez-faire  existence  without  organization,  and  if  anyone  attempts  to 
fight  communism,  they  are  spread  thin  and  there  is  danger  that  they 
will  be  smeared  and  destroyed. 

]Mr.  Clardy.  Isn't  that  where  committees  like  our  own  serve  a  use- 
ful public  purpose? 

Dr.  DoDD.  That  is  right,  and  you  need  organized  support  on  the 
])art  of  the  people  back  home,  not  only  in  your  districts,  but  all  over 
the  country. 

Mr.  Clardy.  We  need  the  kind  of  support  you  are  talking  about? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes,  if  you  do  something  worthwhile  in  America,  and 
someone  gets  up  and  writes  a  telegram,  good ;  that  is  fine. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  A  couple  of  those  telegrams  would  help  the  morale 
of  this  committee  occasionally. 

Mr.  Walter.  We  get  the  other  kind. 

.35663— .53 3 


1766    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  Clardt.  May  I  say  that  during  the  Los  Angeles  hearings  held 
some  months  ago,  we  received  a  total  of  around  5,000  letters  and 
telegrams  and  only  an  infinitesimal  percentage  were  antagonistic. 
We  had  the  advantage  there  of  good  press  coverage,  and  good  radio 
coverage,  and  good  television  coverage,  and  the  message  apparently 
got  across. 

Dr.  DoDD.  We  used  to  send  telegrams  in  the  Communist  Party.  If 
we  were  going  to  do  something,  we  would  have  telegrams  mimeo- 
graphed. We  would  spread  the  mimeographed  telegrams  and  get 
people  to  sign  their  names,  pay  their  33  cents,  and  we  would  send  them. 
Mr.  Clardy.  Congressmen  got  those  messages  constantly  on  almost 
every  issue. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  turning  back  to  teachers,  would  you  say 
a  Communist  teacher  is  a  free  person  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  A  free  person,  no;  a  Communist  is  not  a  free  person, 
although  he  thinks  he  is  free.  He  thinks  he  is  free  because  he  is  defy- 
ing what  is  established  society,  but  unfortunately,  no  Communist  is 
free.  He  must  live  within  the  incubus  of  the  Communist  line,  and  if 
he  doesn't  follow  it,  some  pretty  sad  results  will  be  visited  upon  his 
head,  so  that  he  is  not  free  to  think  as  he  wants  to,  to  act  as  he  wants 
to,  or  to  operate  w^ithin  his  profession  as  he  wants  to.  He  is  urged 
to  join  certain  organizations.  He  must  conform  to  what  the  party 
asks  him  to  do. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  What  you  say  is  true,  Doctor,  because  we  have  had 
similar  testimony  from  a  number  of  fine  witnesses  before  this  com- 
mittee. 

I  am  thinking  of  one  in  the  Los  Angeles  area  who  had  advanced  to 
a  high  place  in  his  profession  as  a  writer,  but  when  he  became  a  mem- 
ber of  the  Communist  Party,  he  was  willing  to  submit  his  writings 
to  functionaries  of  the  party,  who  blue-penciled  that  writing  and 
said,  "This  doesn't  conform  to  the  party  line." 

Men  with  education  far  inferior  to  his  were  able  to  edit  his  work. 
He  freely  admitted  that  happened  to  him  on  occasions.  Certainly, 
that  wasn't  academic  freedom  as  we  know  it. 

Dr.  Dodd.  If  you  wrote  at  all,  even  if  you  wrote  within  your  own 
field,  a  physicist  or  a  teacher,  if  you  wrote  a  book  on  how  to  teach 
and  were  a  member  of  the  party,  you  had  to  subniit  it  to  the  group, 
the  collective,  for  their  opinion  and  their  instructions.  Even  if  you 
wrote  a  novel,  you  had  to  submit  it  for  approval,  and  if  it  was  not 
then  approved  and  you  insisted  upon  publishing  it,  you  were  sub- 
ject to  expulsion  and  to  getting  all  the  reprisals  of  getting  bad  reviews 
by  those  who  are  writing  reviews  on  books. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Weren't  there  certain  members  of  the  party,  or  func- 
tionaries of  the  party,  that  were  assigned  to  that  particular  task  with- 
in the  party  of  reviewing  works  such  as  we  have  been  talking  about? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Well,  yes ;  there  was  a  cultural  committee. 

Mr.  Clardy.  They  extended  this  censorship  in  the  field  of  science 

and  music  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Into  every  activity  of  the  members.  Even  on  the  ques- 
tion of  art,  if  you  were  an  artist  and  your  paintings  did  not  conform 
with  the  Marxist-Leninist  approach, 'you  would  be  criticized  by  the 
group  to  which  you  belonged  which  was  a  group  of  artists.  If  you 
didn't  change  your  line  of  tactics,  if  you  didn't  conform  to  the  criti- 
cisms, you  would  find  yourself  out. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1767 

Mr.  ScHEBER.  You  gentlemen  recall  the  testimony  of  the  director 
in  Hollywood  who  told  about  the  show  that  was  being  rehearsed 
where  Hitler  and  Stalin  were  dancing,  Hitler  had  a  knife  at  the  back 
of  Stalin  and  Stalin  had  a  knife  at  the  back  of  Hitler,  and  the  Com- 
munist Party  functionary  in  control  of  these  people  made  them  take 
the  knife  out  of  the  hand  of  Stalin. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  you  would  say,  then,  wouldn't  yoii,  that 
freedom  and  freedom  of  speech  and  so  forth,  as  it  is  used  today  in  this 
constant  discussion  of  academic  freedom,  has  no  application  in  the 
sense  in  which  it  is  specifically  being  used  when  referred  to  Communist 
school  teachers  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Only  one  freedom  the  Communist  teacher  has.  Once  he 
joins  the  movement,  he  is  within  the  collectivity.  He  performs  accord- 
ing to  the  collective.  There  is  this  semblance  of  freedom  which  may 
delude  teachers,  because  it  is  the  function  of  the  Communist  Party  to 
create  a  defiance  of  government  and  defiance  of  the  established  in- 
stitutions of  this  country,  the  teacher  is  permitted  to  exhibit  that  de- 
fiance against  all  legally  constituted  authorities. 

Mr.  Clakdy.  That  is  what  they  want  him  to  do  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  That  is  what  they  want  him  to  do,  but  he  doesn't  recognize 
that.  He  thinks  the  party  is  giving  him  great  freedom.  The  Com- 
munist Party  is  pushing  him  in  the  line  of  defiance  and  creating  this 
defiance  against  the  regularly  established  institutions,  but  he  doesn't 
dare  say  "boo"  when  it  comes  to  the  question  of  the  Communist  Party 
or  anything  the  Communist  Party  sets  down. 

I  remember  once  I  was  at  a  convention  of  the  American  Federation 
of  Teachers,  1937,  and  the  great  question  was  whether  the  American 
Federation  of  Teachers  should  go  into  the  CIO  or  not,  and  the  party 
had  laid  down  the  rigid  rule  that  unless  we  had  90  percent  of  the 
members  of  the  union,  or  85  percent  of  the  members  of  the  union  inter- 
ested in  going  to  the  CIO,  we  should  stay  with  the  A.  F.  of  L. 

We  happened  to  have  60  percent  of  the  delegates  who  wanted  to  go 
into  the  CIO.  In  spite  of  the  fact  that  most  of  us  wanted  to  go  to  the 
CIO,  we  were  compelled  because  we  had  two  party  leaders  in  the 
hotel  there  practically  holding  a  whip  over  us — we  stayed  with  the 
A.  F.  of  L.  against  our  better  judgment  and  better  instincts,  but  we  had 
to  conform  to  the  policy  of  the  party. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Did  Communists,  and  did  you  when  you  were  work- 
ing with  the  Communists,  make  use  of  teachers  to  infiltrate  political 
organizations  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Teachers  are  an  extremely  valuable  part  of  the  Com- 
munist Party. 

First,  they  are  great  people  for  raising  money  and  contributing 
money  to  the  party.  Secondly,  they  are  an  articulate  group  and  good 
to  look  at.  You  can  send  them  into  any  organization,  and  they  can 
stand  on  their  own  two  feet  and  speak  up  and  be  heard.  One  of  the 
things  we  did  was  to  use  teachers  in  the  various  political  parties. 

In  New  York  State,  we  used  them  in  the  American  Labor  Party, 
and  in  the  Progressive  Party.  There  have  been  places  where  we  sent 
them  into  the  Democratic  Party  or  the  Republican  Party  to  operate  as 
Eepublicans  and  Democrats,  you  know,  but  to  operate  as  Communists 
within  their  organizations. 

Mr.  Clardy.  How  do  Communists  on  a  college  campus  function? 


1768    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Dr.  DoDD.  Where  there  was  a  unit  of  at  least  three  or  more  mem- 
bers, they  would  meet  regularly  and  function  as  a  unit.  They  would 
get  instructions  from  the  person  in  charge  of  the  county  or  city  on 
which  the  campus  was  located.  They  would  pay  their  dues  to  that 
person.  At  their  meetings,  they  would  discuss  first  the  party  line,  get 
education  on  the  Marxist-Leninist  line  and,  second,  they  would  dis- 
cuss the  question  of  how  to  penetrate  other  organizations.  If  there 
was  no  union  on  the  campus,  they  would  form  a  union. 

If  it  was  too  difficult  to  form  a  union,  they  would  form  a  loose 
association  in  which  the  common  problems  might  be  discussed.  They 
would  attach  themselves  or  form  some  connection  with  the  youth,  the 
young  people,  with  the  students  on  the  campus. 

If  there  was  a  parents'  organization,  they  would  join  the  parents' 
organization.  They  would  discuss  their  meetings  and  how  to  function 
in  each  of  the  organizations  attached  to  the  college.  Some  of  them 
would  be  used  for  special  work  by  the  party.  Some  might  be  used  for 
special  work  in  writing,  doing  research  work  for  the  party.  The 
party  has  to  get  out  a  lot  of  literature.  Much  of  the  research  was 
work  done  by  the  members  on  the  campus  to  be  sent  in  and  used  as 
the  party  saw  fit. 

If  the  party  wanted  to  issue  something  on  the  monetary  system  or 
on  the  question  of  immigration,  or  some  other  question  or  whatever 
it  might  be,  the  people  who  were  specialists  on  tlie  college  campus 
were  asked  to  send  in  research  material. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  How  would  the  Communist  professor  attempt  to 
influence  students  and  other  people  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Well,  as  I  said  before,  communism  is  a  way  of  life,  and  it 
is  almost  like  a  religion.  It  becomes  a  part  of  you.  It  affects  your 
entire  thinking.  It  affects  your  attitude  toward  your  students,  toward 
your  government,  affects  your  attitude  toward  things  that  are  hap- 
pening day  by  day.  Most  Communist  college  professors  begin  by  being 
very  much  interested  in  their  students,  and  if  they  have  a  Conmiunist 
philosophy,  they  pass  it  on. 

Many  of  them  try  to  influence  their  students  to  become  Communists. 
Any  number  of  students  have  become  Communists  because  they  ad- 
mired a  professor  who  was  going  in  that  direction.  Then  he  func- 
tions within  all  the  other  organizations  on  the  campus  in  affecting 
their  thinking,  the  question  of  choosing  books  for  the  libraiy,  the 
question  of  establishing  curricula  for  the  college. 

For  instance,  if  you  go  through  the  catalogs  of  various  colleges  of 
America,  you  find  from  the  period  of  1925  to  about  1948  or  1949  that 
most  of  the  colleges,  for  instance,  have  dropped  all  their  courses  on 
ethics  or  religion;  you  will  find  most  of  the  colleges  dropped  their 
courses — even  the  law  schools  dropped  their  courses — on  constitutional 
law.  That  is  a  strange  kind  of  thing,  even  in  New  York  State.  Many 
law  schools  dropped  the  courses  on  constitutional  law. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  didn't  know  that. 

Dr.  DoDD.  That  is  true.  That  change  in  curriculum  is  an  interest- 
ing thing  because  it  changes  your  method  of  approach.  If  your 
law  schools  drop  their  courses  on  constitutional  law,  how  much  more 
do  the  liberal  arts  colleges  do  it  ?  Within  the  Constitution,  within  the 
Bill  of  Rights,  we  are  very  fortunate  in  that  they  were  written  at  a 
particular  time  by  a  particular  group  of  men.    We  have  the  whole 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1769 

genius  of  the  American  type  of  government.    Unless  the  American 
people  understand  it  and  appreciate  it,  they  can't  fight  to  defend  it. 

When  the  Communists  come  along  with  something  that  seems  so 
superior,  they  have  nothing  with  which  to  oppose  it. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  say  some  of  the  law  schools  you  are  acquainted 
with  in  New  York  have  actually  dropped  the  study  of  constitutional 
law? 

Dr.  DoDD.  In  most  places,  it  was  not  a  compulsory  part  of  the 
curriculum. 

Mr.  Clardy.  It  is  compulsory  in  the  school  I  graduated  from  at 
Ann  Arbor. 

Dr.  DoDD.  It  wasn't  compulsory  in  the  school  I  went  to. 

You  will  be  interested  in  noting  the  catalogs  about  eithics,  courses 
on  religion,  courses  on  the  Bible ;  they  have  practically  been  dropped 
out  of  the  college  curricula. 

It  is  a  method  of  despiritualizing  the  American  people. 

Mr.  Clardy.  A  part  of  the  overall  movement  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Why  are  teachers,  above  all,  so  desired  by  communism  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Well,  I  guess  the  Communists  know  that  the  old  people 
living  in  America  today  are  not  going  to  make  the  revolution.  They 
are  not  the  people  who  are  going  to  count.  They  count  on  the  young 
people,  and  those  who  control  the  youth  are  the  people  who  control 
the  future  of  this  country. 

Mr.  Clardy.  That  is  the  reasoning  that  Hitler  used,  isn't  it  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  That  is  the  reasoning  that  any  people  have  who  are 
out  to  control. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Seize  the  minds  of  the  youth,  and  you  will  have  them 
in  due  course  to  control  the  Nation  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  For  better  or  for  worse.  I  am  for  the  Americans  seizing 
the  minds  of  the  youth  and  giving  them  standards  to  live  by  which 
are  part  of  the  western  culture. 

Mr.  Clardy.  May  I  ask  a  question  on  a  related  subject?  I  had 
occasion  to  answer  a  question  on  this  subject  myself,  and  I  would  like 
to  have  yours.  Do  you  agi*ee  that  it  would  be  a  wholesome  thing  if 
not  only  constitutional  law  and  the  American  system  as  a  whole  were 
taught,  but  that  the  youth  were  taught  all  about  communism,  all 
about  socialism,  all  about  the  various  isms,  so  that  they  might  be 
able  to  draw  a  real  conclusion  as  to  which  was  the  better? 

Dr.  Dodd.  I  certainly  believe  the  American  people  have  got  to  stop 
fooling  around  with  just  fighting  communism  in  the  abstract.  They 
have  got  to  know  what  the  thing  means,  why  they  are  against  it,  and 
how  to  fight  it. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Teaching  it,  not  advocating  it,  of  course,  but  teaching 
it  so  that  the  pupils  from  an  early  age  will  understand  what  it  is 
all  about,  would  be  one  of  the  most  effective  ways  of  combating  it, 
don't  you  think? 

Dr.  Dodd.  I  think  it  is  absolutely  essential.  Wlien  37  people  out 
of  100  are  living  in  a  Communist  regime,  certainly  we  ought  to  know 
what  it  means  and  our  people  ought  to  understand  it  and  pose  it 
against  the  things  we  believe. 

Mr.  Clardy.  I  learned  one  thing  in  the  hearings  at  Los  Angeles 
that  still  has  me  staggered.    It  was  to  the  effect  that  the  Communists 


1770    COMMLGSriST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

actually  took  nursery  rhymes  and  treated  them  to  follow  the  party  lines 
so  they  might  seize  the  mind  of  youth  even  in  the  kindergarten 
stage  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  That  is  not  unusual,  is  it?  After  all,  if  you  are  going  to 
seize  the  minds  of  children,  you  seize  them  as  early  as  possible. 

That  is  one  of  the  things  the  Communists  have  done.  I  am  for 
nursery  schools  for  working  women,  certainly,  but  the  Communists 
have  come  out  with  a  program  for  nursery  schools  for  everyone. 

In  the  nursery  schools,  you  begin  by  affecting  the  children  by 
emphasizing  material  values.  You  eliminate,  for  instance,  from  the 
nursery  school  rhymes  and  anything  that  has  to  do  with  religion.  At 
Cliristmas  you  deal  with  Christmas  as  a  pagan  holiday.  You  choose 
the  rhymes,  choose  the  activities,  and  you  follow  the  educational 
philosophy  which  says  the  child  is  just  a  blank  page.  He  learns  only 
by  doing.    You  adopt  that  philosophy  and  implement  it. 

Mr.  Clardy.  The  party  is  dedicated,  then,  from  the  beginning,  to 
destroying  all  belief  in  God,  all  belief  in  religion,  all  belief  in  man's 
right  to  be  an  individual,  in  fact,  just  destroying  everything  that  we 
think  is  worthwhile  in  life  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  There  is  no  doubt  about  the  fact  that  the  first  enerny  of 
the  Communist  is  a  belief  in  the  fact  that  you  are  created  by  a  Divine 
Creator.  That  they  have  to  get  rid  of  before  anything  else.  If  they 
can  wipe  that  out,  then  it  is  easy,  because  if  you  don't  believe  in  a 
God,  all  you  believe  in  is  better  material  advancement,  and  the  Com- 
munists promise  greater  material  advancement  for  all. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Because  we  believe  in  America  as  so  stated,  our  in- 
alienable rights  come  from  the  Creator  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  teachers,  then,  obviously  play  an  important 
part  in  the  Communist  scheme  of  things  in  teaching  youth.  Contrary- 
wise,  do  teachers  as  such,  intellectual  people  as  such,  do  they  play  an 
important  part  in  the  higher  realms  of  party  control  ?  In  other  words, 
do  they  want  such  people  there,  or  do  they  not  want  such  people  there  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Well,  there  are  a  few  teachers  who  become  topnotch  party 
leaders. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Such  as  yourself  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  But,  by  and  large,  teachers  are  used.  Intellectuals  are 
used  because  the  Communist  Party  distrusts  all  bourgeois  education. 
They  would  much  prefer  to  take  a  man  who  has  had  a  third  or  fourth 
grade  education,  send  him  to  a  national  training  school  of  the  Com- 
munist Party,  and  give  him  the  slogans  and  the  ideologies  of  Marxism 
and  Leninism  and  have  him  become  the  important  person  who  becomes 
the  leader  of  the  party. 

While  they  use  it  all  the  time,  they  are  contemptuous  of  bourgeois 
education.  Very  few  from  the  intellectual  groups  become  leaders  of 
the  Communist  Party.  In  1935,  I  was  a  member  of  the  cadre  com- 
mittee ;  a  cadre  committee. 

Mr.  Clardy.  What  is  that  name? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Cadre  committee.  That  committee  was  supposed  to 
screen  all  the  past  leadership  and  decide  whether  they  should  remain 
as  leaders  or  not.  I  was  a  young  person  and  put  on  that  committee; 
I  don't  know  why;  just  nominated  from  the  floor,  and  when  we  went 
through  the  list  of  people  who  came  before  us,  I  was  aghast  when  each 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1771 

one  repeated  tlie  same  type  of  story :  "My  mother  took  in  washing,"  or, 
"My  family  was  poor," 

They  made  themselves  poor.  They  said  they  were  poor,  that  they 
only  went  to  the  third  grade,  "but  I  became  a  leader."  If  you  had  an 
education,  you  really  became  a  little  embarrassed  about  it. 

I  remember  at  that  time  asking  Alexander  Trachtenberg  about  this 
phenomena,  and  he  said  that  was  just  so  much  talk,  that  Stalin  studied 
for  the  priesthood,  and  Lenin  was  a  lawyer.  That  gave  me  a  sense  of 
the  dishonesty  of  it,  then,  that  they  would  constantly  belittle  them- 
selves to  emphasize  the  fact  that  proletarians  were  capable  of  rising  to 
leadership. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  try  to  infiltrate  not  only  teachers  in  universi- 
ties and  also  infiltrate  teachers'  schools — in  other  words,  teachers  who 
taught  the  teachers  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  The  rule  was,  wherever  possible,  you  made  contacts  and 
you  tried  to  place  people  into  positions  of  influence. 

Communists  don't  like  to  be  in  jobs  which  don't  have  influence. 
They  don't  like  ordinary  workers'  jobs. 

Mr.  Clardy.  They  are  seeking  after  power,  aren't  they  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Yes.  Teachers'  institutions  are  very  powerful  institu- 
tions because  if  you  are  teaching  teachers,  and  they  go  out  and  teach 
others,  the  realm  of  your  influence  is  very  great. 

Mr.  Clardy.  That  sucker  list  theory,  just  expanded? 

Dr.  DoDD.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  a  personal  question,  if  I  may, 
Dr.  Dodd,  to  this  effect :  You  talked  previously  about  how  Communist 
teachers  influence  their  students.  Do  you  feel  that  you  yourself  as  a 
Communist  teacher  influenced  students? 

Dr.  Dodd.  There  is  no  doubt  in  my  mind  that  I  influenced  students. 
I  was  teaching  economics;  I  was  teaching  political  science,  history. 
These  are  subjects  which  are  very  easily  influenced  by  a  Marxist- 
Leninist  approach.  I  was  teaching  during  the  period  of  the  depres- 
sion, and  during  that  period  the  Communists  said  the  reason  for  the 
depression  was  the  breakdown  in  the  capitalist  system  and  the  only 
thing  which  would  obviate  any  future  depressions  would  be  elimina- 
tion of  the  system.  Change  the  system,  and  you  would  have  no  more 
depressions. 

Unfortunately,  there  were  no  other  answers  being  given  at  the  time. 
The  Communist  answer  was  the  easiest  answer  to  give.  It  was  easy 
to  just  push  the  students  in  that  direction. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Wouldn't  you  say.  Doctor,  that  it  is  just  simply  impos- 
sible for  a  genuine  Communist  to  divide  himself,  more  or  less,  and 
isolate  the  Communist  thinking  from  his  other  thinking  when  he  goes 
into  the  classroom? 

Dr.  Dodd.  It  is  impossible  for  him  to  divide  himself.  He  is  a  Com- 
munist primarily. 

Mr.  Clardy.  When  he  goes  in  the  classroom,  he  is  entirely  a  Com- 
munist and  anything  he  thinks  is  bound  to  influence  what  he  does  and 
says  about  things,  isn't  it  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  And  what  he  influences  the  students  to  do. 
Mr.  ScHERER.  He  can't  teach  objectively  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  It  is  impossible.  You  talk  to  your  students;  you  can't 
tear  yourself  apart. 


1772    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  if  I  might  suggest  it,  this  might  be 
a  ^ood  moment  for  a  break. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  We  will  recess,  then,  gentlemen,  until  1 :  30. 

(Thereupon,  at  12:20  p.  m.,  the  hearing  was  recessed  to  reconvene 
at  1 :  30  p.  m.  same  day.) 

AFl'ERNOON    SESSION 

(At  the  hour  of  1 :45  p.  m.,  of  the  same  day,  the  proceedings  were 
resumed,  the  same  parties  being  present.) 

TESTIMONY  OF  BELLA  V.  DODD— Eesumed 

Mr.  ScHERER.  The  committee  will  be  in  session. 

You  may  proceed,  Mr.  Counsel,  with  the  witness. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Dr.  Docld,  you  were  talking  before  about  the  Communist  purpose, 
what  they  do.  Could  you  describe  further  the  Communist  sense  of 
participation  for  world  good,  so  to  speak ;  how  they  are  led  into  this 
type  of  thinking  and  their  belief  in  what  they  themselves  are  doing  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Well,  the  Communist  movement  does  give  to  the  indi- 
vidual person  who  feels  sort  of  lost  in  this  world  a  sense  of  participa- 
tion in  something  which  is  much  bigger  than  himself.  He  has  a  sense 
of  belonging  to  a  world  movement  so  that  if  the  Chinese  are  making 
a  revolution  he  feels  a  part  of  that  Chinese  movement.  He  not  only 
feels  a  part  of  it  but  he  pledges  his  own  loyalty  and  his  own  support. 

This  is  one  of  the  explanations  why  the  Communist  movement  has 
grown  so  rapidly  among  people,  particularly  among  people  who  are 
dispossessed,  people  who  do  not  feel  a  part  of  things  in  this  world, 
people  who  have  given  up  any  real  belief  in  a  fundamental  philosophy 
of  life  or  religion.  They  give  themselves  a  sense  of  participation  in 
great  things  in  the  world. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  If  they  feel  they  are  doing  great  things  and  good 
things — and  everyone  likes  to  feel  that  what  he  is  doing  is  good — 
how  does  a  Communist  interpret  the  millions  of  people  in  concen- 
tration camps  under  the  heel  of  the  Russian  Government? 

Dr.  DoDD.  Mr.  Counselor,  I  want  to  assure  you  that  genuine  Com- 
munists don't  believe  that.  They  believe  that  is  nothing  but  propa- 
ganda issued  by  the  imperialists  or  capitalists.  They  do  not  believe 
there  are  any  people  in  the  concentration  camps  of  the  Soviet  Union. 
If  you  brought  them  statistics,  they  wouldn't  believe  it.  They  believe 
only  their  own  propagandists,  or  those  who  will  make  statements  sim- 
ilar to  their  own  propagandists. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Even  when  Dave  Dallin  or  someone  comes  from  Rus- 
sia and  tells  them  ? 

Dr.  DoDD.  One  of  the  sorriest  examples  I  can  give  you  is  myself. 
As  late  as  1949,  I  was  asked  the  question,  "How  about  the  people  in 
the  concentration  camps  in  Russia?" 

I  said,  "I  am  not  aware  of  the  fact  that  there  are  concentration 
camps  in  Russia.     I  don't  know." 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  having  been,  as  you  just  said,  a  personal 
victim  of  the  Communist  conspiracy,  what  would  be  your  message 
of  warning  to  the  teachers  of  this  Nation  on  this  problem? 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  have  a  great  deal  of  respect  for  both  the  public  and 
private  schools  of  America.    American  education,  by  and  large,  has 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1773 

given  us  a  wonderful  body  of  people,  trained  and  skilled  to  make 
the  wonders  of  American  industry. 

I  think,  however,  that  the  American  teachers  have  to  understand 
that  education  must  have  a  basic  philosophy  and  they  must  themselves 
drink  deep  of  the  political  genuis  of  America  as  embodied  in  the 
Declaration  of  Independence  and  the  Bill  of  Rights. 

They  must  have  a  philosophy  consonant  with  the  Hebraic-Christian 
tradition,  which  has  been  the  basis  of  western  civilization.  I  think 
teachers  must  understand  that  they  are  the  guardians  of  America's 
future;  and,  by  and  large,  I  think  the  teachers  have  been  fulfilling 
and  will  fulfill  this  duty.  The  unusual  persons  in  their  midst  who  get 
trapped  in  the  Communist  conspiracy,  they  must  recognize,  they  must 
label,  and  they  must  help  that  person  as  a  person. 

I  don't  mean  that  the  teachers  on  the  campus  are  to  hurt  the  Com- 
munist teachers,  but  they  must  label  them  so  that  they  are  out  in  the 
open.  That  is  the  thing  which  the  teachers  of  America  can  do.  They 
know  who  the  Communists  are  on  the  campus.  They  know  better 
than  any  investigating  committee  could  ever  know.  They  are  the 
ones  Avho  can  avert  this  great  clanger  which  faces  America. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  But,  at  least  to  all  signs  at  present,  they  have  not  done 
it,  have  they  ? 

Mr.  DoDD.  Well,  it  is  an  uneven  thing.  In  some  communities  they 
have,  and  in  other  communities  they  have  not.  In  some  communities 
they  have  allowed  themselves  to  be  pulled  into  a  group  whom  they  call 
"liberals" ;  and,  on  the  ground  of  the  right  of  every  j)erson  to  believe 
as  he  sees  fit,  they  have  allowed  themselves  to  become  supporters  of  the 
very  members  of  this  conspiracy. 

This  is  not  liberalism,  not  liberalism  in  the  finest  sense  of  the  word. 
This  is  just  allowing  the  Communist  to  pull  them  into  a  propaganda 
environment  which  says  that  "anyone  who  is  close  to  the  Communist 
is  a  liberal.     I  do  not  believe  that  is  the  definition  of  "a  liberal." 

A  liberal  is  a  person  who  believes  in  the  right  of  the  individual  to 
function.  The  Communist  does  not  believe  in  the  right  of  the  indi- 
vidual. They  believe  only  in  the  right  of  the  collective.  The  individ- 
ual is  only  part  of  a  collective  group,  and  whenever  he  doesn't  move 
according  to  the  collective  he  is  ousted  from  the  group. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  So  you  would  say  that  when  so-called  liberals  today, 
self-denominated  liberals,  support  and  work  with  the  Communist 
program,  they  are  being  deluded  into  thinking  they  are  helping  a 
liberal  cause  when  it  is  not  liberal. 

Dr.  DoDD.  One  of  the  great  tragedies  today  is  that  these  Americans 
do  not  realize  that  this  would  take  civilization  back  to  a  barbarism 
which  existed  long  before  the  Christian  era. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  wanted  to  ask  you  a  little  bit  about  another  country 
which  I  always  felt  personally  was  one  of  the  greatest  free  countries 
in  Europe,  and  that  is  the  country  of  Czechoslovakia.  Certainly  it 
was  one  of  the  finest  democracies  in  the  world  at  one  time,  was  it  not? 

Mr.  DoDD.  Yes,  and  took  many  of  its  ideas  from  the  American 
Constitution. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  That  country  was  formed  in  Philadelphia  in  front  of 
our  Liberty  Bell  in  the  days  of  President  Wilson. 

That  country  fell.  I  wanted  to  ask  you  whether  you  feel  that 
America  might  some  day  succumb  to  the  same  type  of  thinking  that 


1774    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

commimism  hands  out  unless  we  are  able  to  break  up  this  thought 
that  they  have. 

Dr.  DoDD.  There  is  no  doubt  in  my  mind  that  Czechoslovakia  didn't 
fall  before  an  armed  force,  but  fell  because  the  intellectuals  and  pro- 
fessional groups  in  Czechoslovakia  came  to  the  conclusion  that  com- 
munism was  their  salvation.  They  are  the  ones  who  opened  the  door 
to  the  Soviet  Union.  It  is  quite  possible  in  the  United  States  to 
have — it  is  not  a  very  difficult  thing  for  a  country  to  fall.  It  isn't  a 
question — we  must  get  away  from  the  idea  that  a  country  falls  by  guns 
alone.  A  country  falls  when  we  adopt  Communist  ideas  and  move 
in  the  direction  of  communism.  The  battle  for  America  is  house  by 
house,  street  by  street,  city  by  city.  It  is  a  question  of  asking  our- 
selves what  ideas  and  ideals  are  we  living  by  ? 

"  The  Communists  have  a  way  of  changing  names  and  labels.  When 
the  old  names  become  discredited,  they  change  these  names.  They 
change  the  name  of  the  Communist  Party.  In  some  South  American 
countries,  you  have  any  number  of  parties  that  do  not  go  under  the 
name  of  Communist  Party. 

How  shall  we  recognize  them,  then  ?  We  can  only  recognize  them 
by  the  fact  that  they  believe  that  there  is  no  God ;  that  a  person  is  just 
born,  grows,  dies,  decays,  and  that  is  the  end.  They  believe  that  the 
individual  doesn't  matter;  that  the  collective  matters.  They  believe 
that  certain  people  should  have  the  power  to  run  a  country. 

Wlien  these  principles  are  evident,  no  matter  what  labels  they  are 
under,  we  recognize  them  as  signs  of  communism.  It  is  not  up  to  the 
teachers  alone,  but  to  each  father  and  mother.  Each  person  within 
our  country  has  the  job  of  defeating  Communist  ideas.  It  is  up  to 
Congress  to  ferret  out  the  organized  agents  of  communism.  It  is  up  to 
our  FBI  to  do  that.  The  rest  of  us  have  the  job  of  building  a  strong 
America,  strengthening  the  family  life,  strengthening  the  virtues  of 
the  individual. 

If  you  have  a  strong  family  life,  and  you  obliterate  some  of  the 
social  inequities  that  exist,  and  I  want  to  add  that,  because  I  think 
the  Communists  feed  upon  social  inequities;  whenever  there  is  injus- 
tice, discrimination,  against  a  Jewish  person,  foreign  born  persons  or 
Negro  persons,  they  grow.  It  is  up  to  us  to  eradicate  those  injustices. 
If  we  do  that,  we  needn't  fear  communism. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  wondered,  Dr.  Dodd,  if  you  possibly  recall  an  ex- 
perience you  had  recently  at  the  University  of  Connecticut  with  re- 
gard to  this  situation  you  had  there  ?  Do  you  want  to  tell  the  com- 
mittee that?  It  was  with  regard  to  what  happened  to  a  boy  in 
Czechoslovakia. 

Dr.  DoDD.  I  didn't  know  you  heard  that  story.  I  was  at  the  Uni- 
versity of  Connecticut  not  long  ago,  and  I  had  a  lot  of  questions 
asked  me  pro  and  con.  Many  of  the  people  were  saying,  "How  about 
freedom  of  thought  and  so  on?" 

After  answering  the  questions  to  the  best  of  my  ability  for  about 
an  hour  and  a  half,  a  boy  got  up.  He  had  on  a  leather  jacket.  In 
rather  broken  English,  he  said,  "You  fellows  here  at  the  university 
are  speaking  exactly  as  we  talked  in  Czechoslovakia  5  years  ago.  It 
is  too  late  for  us,  but  it  isn't  too  late  for  you." 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  I  wanted  to  ask  you  if  you  would  read  to 
the  committee  and  into  the  record  from  a  publication  called  The  Com- 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1775 

munist,  the  theoretical  magazine  of  the  Communist  Party,  an  article 
written  in  1937  at  the  time  the  Teachers'  Union  was  at  its  peak,  an 
article  called,  The  Schools  Are  the  People's  Front.  This  was  written 
by  a  man  called  Eichard  Frank.  If  you  have  no  copy,  I  have  one  here. 
I  wanted  to  ask  you  if  you  would  give  the  committee  the  exact  words 
from  this  article  to  show  what  the  viewpoint  of  the  Communist  is. 

Dr.  DoDD.  This  was  an  article  written  by  a  young  Communist  who 
was  recruited  from  the  University  of  Virginia  and  who  became  a  func- 
tionary of  the  Commiuiist  Party.  This  article  was  written  in  1937, 
in  the  magazine  called  The  Communist,  which  was  the  theoretical 
organ  for  the  Communist  Party. 

This  had  to  do  with  the  duties  and  functions  of  the  teachers  in  edu- 
cation— Connnunist  teachers  in  the  educational  system. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  That  is  why  I  think  it  is  important  to  present  this  to 
the  committee. 

Dr.  DoDD.  These  are  just  excerpts  from  it. 

That  which  is  most  immediately  apparent  to  anyone  who  studies  public  edu- 
cation must  be  the  fact  that  the  public  school  system  is  part  of  the  state  ma- 
chinery, and  the  function  of  the  state  machinery  being  to  subjugate  the  pro- 
letarian and  the  toiling  masses  in  general  to  the  rule  of  the  bourgeoisie,  the  role 
of  the  public  school  system  cannot  be  isolated  from  this  general  function  of 
the  capitalist  state. 

This  merely  means  that  the  Communists  believe  that  our  Govern- 
men  is  the  instrument  of  class  domination.  That  the  rule  is  made  by 
the  employers,  not  by  the  employees ;  by  the  owners  of  the  property, 
but  not  by  those  who  are  without  property,  and  therefore,  the  schools^ 
being  a  part  of  the  state  apparatus  are  also  instruments  of  oppres- 
sing the  proletariat. 

On  the  next  page,  Frank  says — 

Because  of  the  economic  hardships  of  their  home  life,  the  majority  of  the 
children  develop  a  feeling  of  hatred  for  the  bourgeois  public  school  system.  This 
hatred  develops  that  spirit  of  rebelliousness  which  is  to  be  found  in  every  public 
schoolroom. 

The  rebelliousness  of  the  school  children  directed  against  a  part  of  the  state 
machinery  itself  is  something  that  Communists  cannot  afford  to  ignore.  This, 
together  with  their  desire  for  knowledge  and  social  life,  must  form  the  start- 
ing point  for  our  work  among  the  students  in  the  schools.  The  problem  is 
rather  how  to  guide  and  direct  that  spirit  of  rebelliousness  which  already 
exists. 

And  then,  of  course,  he  makes  certain  recommendations,  that  we 
ought  to  get  the  student  into  the  Young  Communist  League. 

The  Young  Communist  League  must  endeavor  to  raise  the  spirit  of  rebellion 
found  among  school  children  to  a  level  of  higher  consciousness  by  educating  the 
student  on  the  l)asis  of  their  own  experience  to  a  realization  of  the  class  basis 
for  the  oppressive  nature  of  the  schools  and  to  a  realization  of  how  the  school 
system  under  a  workers'  and  farmers'  government  would  deal  with  the  immediate 
problems  of  the  majority  of  students,  imparting  to  them,  with  the  utmost  solici- 
tude for  their  own  interests,  that  warm  and  friendly  culture  of  their  own  class. 

In  other  words,  this  emphasizes  the  class  structure  thesis  of  the  Com- 
munists.   Then,  he  goes  on  to  say — 

The  task  of  the  Communist  Party  must  be  first  and  foremost  to  arouse  the 
teachers  to  class  consciousness  and  to  organize  them  into  the  union. 

Communist  teachers  are  therefore  faced  with  a  tremendous  social  responsi- 
bility. They  must  consider  not  merely  their  own  teaching  problems,  but  the 
problems  of  the  children.  They  must  take  advantage  of  their  position  without 
exposing  themselves,  to  give  their  students,  to  the  best  of  their  ability,  the 
working-class  education. 


1776    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  how  much  money,  may  I  ask,  did  you  earn 
with  the  party  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Well,  I  think 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Per  week  or  per  month  ? 

Dr.  Dodd.  One  of  the  things  Americans  must  understand,  the  large 
number  of  Americans  that  get  "sucked"  into  the  Communist  Party,  do 
it  through  idealism.  I  was  an  instructor  at  Hunter  College  when  I 
resigned.  I  resigned  because  I  wanted  to  go  into  the  labor  movement. 
I  went  in  the  Teachers'  Union  and  I  received  $60  a  week.  I  never 
took  more  than  $60  a  week  for  all  the  8  or  9  years  I  was  with  the 
Teachers'  Union.  When  I  was  asked  to  serve  as  the  legislative  repre- 
sentative of  the  Communist  Party,  I  received  the  sum  of  $50  a  week 
as  pay,  and  that  was  $42  a  week  take-home  pay.  You  may  say, 
"Weren't  you  foolish,  with  your  education,  to  take  that  kind  of 
money?" 

We  weren't  doing  it  for  pay.  We  were  doing  it  because  we  really 
believed  in  it.  That  doesn't  close  my  eyes  to  the  fact  that  there  were 
people  in  the  party  who  were  getting  a  great  many  economic  advan- 
tages by  being  in  the  party  because  salaries  were  uneven.  It  depended 
upon  what  your  needs  were  or  what  the  party  leaders  thought  your 
needs  were.  The  more  idealistic  you  were,  the  more  they  kept  you 
in  this  stage.  That  was  the  reason  why  we  took  the  salary  we  did. 
Most  of  the  men  who  worked  in  the  party  worked  for  very  low  salaries. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Doctor,  while  you  were  a  member  of  the  National 
Committee  of  the  Communist  Party,  were  you  ever  sent  around  the 
United  States  to  coordinate  the  units  by  settling  strifes  or  things  that 
may  have  been  evident,  and  if  so,  were  you  ever  sent  to  Ohio? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Yes;  I  was  in  Ohio  in  early  1945  or  late  1944.  I  was  a 
member  of  the  national  committee.  I  was  sent  to  Cleveland  and 
within  about  75  or  a  hundred  mile  radius,  I  stopped  in  the  various 
places  where  the  party  was  having  problems  and  tried  to  coordinate, 
tried  to  eliminate  strife,  and  tried  to  clarify  the  line  for  them. 

At  that  time,  we  were  just  at  the  end  of  the  war  period  and  beginning 
this  new  postwar  era,  and  the  party  was  uncertain  as  to  what  line  we 
should  follow.  This  was  just  before  we  got  the  Duclos  letter  and 
much  strife  had  risen  in  the  party  at  that  time.  It  was  my  duty  to 
talk  to  party  functionaries,  to  party  union  leaders,  and  to  various 
other  functionaries  of  the  party. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Dodd,  Herbert  Philbrick,  who  was  an  undercover 
agent  of  the  FBI,  testified  the  Communist  Party  ordered  the  members 
in  Avhite-collar  positions,  to  seek  employment  in  factories.  This  has 
been  followed,  obviously,  because  Communist  investigations  have 
shown  some  individuals  who  were  proven  Communists  were  holders 
of  Ph.  D.'s,  for  example,  and  were  working  in  factory  assembly  lines. 

Can  you  explain  this  situation? 

Dr.  Dodd.  Well,  I  tell  you,  the  directions  of  the  party  differed.  In 
general,  the  party  tried  to  proletarianize  the  educated  members  of 
the  party.  They  tried  to  get  them  to  feel  like  workers,  to  be  with 
the  workers  and  to  actually  live  the  life  of  the  w^orkers,  but  at  the 
same  time,  the  party  selected  certain  of  the  intellectuals  to  go  into 
higher  positions. 

Let  me  assure  you  that  just  as  many  Communists  as  you  had  going 
down  into  tlie  ranks  of  the  workers,  you  also  had  many  people  who 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1777 

were  being  put  into  very  elegant  situations,  I  mean  Communists  who 
were  very  comfortable  in  dinner  jackets  and  in  high  society. 

In  other  words,  the  party  knew  how  to  distribute  its  forces,  but  in 
general,  they  attempted  to  proletarianize  their  white-collar  workers, 
feeling  that  they  had  nothing  to  lose  but  their  chains,  feeling  that 
they  had  more  in  common  with  the  workers  of  the  world  than  with 
citizens  within  their  own  country. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  would  like  to  have  you  remove  a  doubt  in  case  any 
exists  as  to  the  fact  that  a  majority  of  the  teachers  support  commu- 
nism. Of  course,  that  isn't  so.  I  would  like  to  have  you  comment 
on  that. 

Dr.  DoDD.  There  are  many  teachei-s  in  America,  and  99.99  are 
against  conmiunism  if  they  knoAv  anything  about  it,  and  they  are 
loyal  Americans.  The  small  percentage  who  are  Communists  are 
effective  because  they  are  so  well  organized,  so  well  sychronized  and 
that  is  the  group  we  want  to  reach. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  certainly  hope  and  I  feel  sure  that  your  testimony 
here  today  will  reach  many  of  these  people  and  make  them  realize  the 
problems  of  communism. 

I  have  no  further  questions. 

Mr.  SciiERER.  Mr.  Clardy,  do  you  have  any  questions  ? 

Mr.  Clardy.  No,  I  do  not. 

I  want  to  present  to  you,  Mrs.  Dodd,  the  feeling  which  I  have  which 
I  am  sure  is  reflected  by  other  members  of  the  committee.  I  think 
you  have  made  an  important  contribution  to  the  committee's  work, 
the  work  of  the  Congress  in  combatting  this  evil  of  communism. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Mr.  Walter. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  want  to  join  with  my  colleague,  Mr.  Clardy,  but  I 
think  you  have  done  more  than  that.  I  think  your  contribution  to- 
day has  been  equal  to  that,  perhaps,  of  a  division  of  American  soldiers 
in  this  fight  against  communism,  and  I  only  hope  that  what  you  have 
done,  which  wasn't  easy,  I  know,  will  give  enough  courage-  to  other 
educated  people,  so  that  they  will  do  what  must  be  done. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Dr.  Dodd,  my  two  colleagues  have  expressed  very 
ably  the  sentiments  of  the  committee,  and  I  want  to  thank  you  for 
coming  here. 

You  are  discharged  from  further  attendance  under  the  subpena. 

Mr.  Kunzig,  do  you  have  another  witness  ? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  The  next  witness  I  would  like  to  call  is  Dr.  Luxon. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Will  you  raise  your  hand  and  be  sworn  ? 

Do  you  solemnlj'  swear  that  the  testimony  you  shall  give  to  this  sub- 
committee shall  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God. 

Mr.  I  uxoN.  I  do. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Dr.  Luxon,  will  you  give  your  full  name  ? 

TESTIMONY  OF  NORVAL  NEIL  LUXON 

Dr.  Luxon.  Norval  Neil  Luxon. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  AVliat  is  your  address  ? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  82  West  Dominion  Boulevard,  Columbus. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Dr.  Luxon,  where  are  you  employed,  sir  ? 

Dr.  Luxon.  Ohio  State  University. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  In  what  capacity  ? 


1778    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Dr.  LuxoN.  Assistant  to  the  president  and  professor  of  journalism. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  have  occasion  recently  to  be  present  at  a  hear- 
ing given  to  Dr.  Darling  by  the  officers  and  officials  of  Ohio  State 
University  ? 

Mr.  Clardy.  Before  he  answers,  I  think  we  should  make  it  abun- 
dantly clear  that  he  is  called  before  the  committee  for  a  technical  pur- 
pose, and  since  he  is  not  accompanied  by  counsel,  that  fact  should  also 
be  on  the  record. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  take  it  you  are  willing  to  testify  without  counsel  ? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  I  am  perfectly  willing. 

Mr.  Clardy.  We  appreciate  that,  sir. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Were  you  present  at  the  hearing  ? 

Dr.  LuxON.  I  was  one  of  the  7  observers ;  3  faculty  members  and  4 
members  of  the  president's  office  that  President  Bevis  asked  to  sit  with 
him  on  the  hearing  for  Dr.  Darling. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  were  subpenaed  to  come  here  today;  is  that 
correct  ? 

Dr.  LuxON.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  you  were  subpenaed  duces  tecum,  to  bring  with 
you  the  transcript  of  that  hearing  ? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  have  that  with  you  ? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  I  have  it  here. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  have  this  transcript 
marked  "Exhibit  No.  1,  Darling  Exhibit  No.  1,"  and  offer  same  into 
evidence  in  this  hearing. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  It  will  be  so  marked  and  so  received. 

(Darling  exhibit  No.  1  was  marked  for  identification  and  received 
in  evidence.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Am  I  correct  in  assuming  that  this  transcript  which  is 
Darling  Exhibit  No.  1  is  the  exact  transcript  of  what  happened  at 
that  hearing? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  I  would  say  it  is  as  exact  as  humanly  possible. 

Mr.  Clardy.  If  there  are  any  errors,  they  have  not  been  called  to 
your  attention  ? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  Well,  there  were  two  words  in  there  that,  even  though 
we  played  the  tape  over  about  30  times,  neither  the  head  of  our  record- 
ing studio  nor  I  could  make  out  the  words,  and  so  we  marked  them 
"indistinguishable." 
.  In  several  of  the  long  statements,  what  is  in  the  transcript  is  directly 
from  the  typed  script  which  was  read  by  the  witnesses, 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Luxon,  do  you  know  a  James  C.  Harris,  who  is 
apparently  an  assistant  professor  of  physics  ? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  I  know  him  casually  as  I  know  many  of  our  faculty 
members.     I  speak  to  him,  see  him  in  the  faculty  club. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Is  there  a  James  C.  Harris  who  is  an  assistant  profes- 
sor of  physics  ? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  Yes ;  there  is. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  At  Ohio  State? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Harris— Professor  Harris — is  apparently  on  a 
trip  to  Europe  and  won't  be  here  to  testify  today,  but  I  wanted  to  ask 
you  whetlier  Professor  Harris  was  present  at  this  hearing  along  with 
Professor  Darling? 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1779 

Dr.  LuxoN.  He  was  present  at  the  April  4  part  of  the  hearing  when 
Professor  Darling  was  accompanied  by  his  attorney,  Joseph  Forer. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Of  Washington,  D.  C.  ? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  Yes,  Washington,  D.  C,  and  the  president  invited  Dr. 
Darling  to  be  present  with  counsel  and  bring  whomever  he  wished. 
At  the  April  2  hearing,  Dr.  Darling  appeared  alone  and  made  an 
appeal  for  a  delay.  We  gave  him  a  48-hour  postponement,  and  when 
he  appeared  Saturday  morning  he  was  accompanied  by  Mr.  Forer, 
and  by  Professor  Harris. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  familiar  with  a  mimeographed  document 
which  was  circulated  throughout  Columbus  and  the  Ohio  State  Uni- 
versity and  also  other  universities  signed  by  James  C.  Harris,  ac- 
companied by  a  mimeographed  statement  marked  "Darling  State- 
ment," unsigned,  and  not  mentioning  Darling's  name  ?  Have  you  seen 
that  ?    I  understand  it  is  an  actual  part  of  the  record  of  that  hearing  ? 

Dr.  Luxox.  Only  a  part  of  it  is  a  part  of  the  hearing.  The  dis- 
tribution of  that  statement  was  made  to  only  a  certain  selected  few 
faculty  members.  Many  faculty  members  did  not  get  it.  No  one  in 
the  administration  got  it  except  in  some  cases,  some  of  our  friends 
brought  it  to  us,  and  I  know  there  is  such  a  document.  If  you  have  it 
there,  I  can  identify  it. 

Mr.  ScHEEER.  Please  have  it  identified. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  a  document  here,  Mr.  Chairman,  marked 
"Darling  Exhibit  No.  2"  for  identification.  I  would  like  now  to 
have  this  handed  to  the  witness  and  see  if  he  can  identify  it  as  the 
statement  about  which  we  are  talking. 

Dr.  LuxoN.  Well,  just  in  running  through  it  hurriedly,  it  appar- 
ently is  that  document ;  yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  investigation  by  committee  investi- 
gators has  shown  that  this  has  been  circulated  around  Ohio  State 
and  other  universities.  It  is  pertinent  to  this  case,  and  I  should  like 
to  offer  this  document  which  has  been  marked  "Darling  Exhibit 
No.  2"  for  identification,  into  evidence  as  Darling  exhibit  No.  2. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  It  will  be  so  received. 

(Darling  exhibt  No.  2  for  identification  was  marked  and  received 
in  evidence.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  no  further  questions  of  this  witness. 

Mr.  Clardt.  May  I  inquire,  counsel,  if  that  is  the  statement  that  is 
read  in  the  evidence  and  is  found  in  exhibit  No.  1  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  According  to  the  testimony,  only  a  part  of  this  state- 
ment was  read  in  the  record. 

Mr.  Clardt.  That  is  what  I  understood  him  to  say.  I  wondered 
if  I  heard  correctly. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Is  that  correct,  Doctor? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  The  entire  statement  which  Dr.  Darling  read  in  the 
closed  hearing  is  a  part  of  this  document  that  he  is  just  asking  me 
about. 

Mr.  Clardt.  I  see,  but  the  document  marked  "Darling  Exhibit  No. 
2"  that  he  is  just  inquiring  about  is  not  included  in  its  entirety  in  the 
original  Darling  exhibit  No.  1  that  you  brought  to  the  hearing? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  Oh,  no,  because  the  president's  office  prepared  exhibit 
No.  1,  and  this  was  prepared  by — at  least,  it  was  signed  by  Mr.  Harris, 
a  colleague  of  Dr.  Darling. 


1780    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA 

Mr.  ScHERER.  The  statement  of  Dr.  Harris,  which  is  part  of  the 
exhibit  just  presented  to  yon  was  one  of  the  things  that  was  not  in- 
ckidecl  in  the  record  which  yon — wliich  is  marked  Darling  exhibit 
No.  1;  is  that  correct?    Do  you  understand  my  question? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  Yes,  I  understand  it.  Without  checking  the  two 
against  each  other,  I  would  not  be  sure  whether  the  statement  of  Mr. 
Harris  is  in  exhibit  1.  As  I  recall  in  his  testimony,  he  didn't  testify — 
in  his  statement,  toward  the  end  of  the  hearing,  he  made  a  very  brief 
statement  and  asked  a  couple  of  questions.  When  he  circulated  this 
statement  of  Dr.  Darling  which  was  made  in  the  hearing,  he  wrote 
a  letter,  what  you  would  normally  call  a  covering  letter.  That  is  not 
part  of  exhibit  1. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  That  is  what  I  am  referring  to,  the  covering  letter. 
That  is  not  part  of  exhibit  1  ? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  No,  that  is  not  part  of  exhibit  1. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Do  you  have  any  questions  ? 

Mr.  Clardy.  Yes,  I  do.  Was  Dr.  Darling  sworn  at  any  time  when 
he  a]:)peared  before  the  committee  and  gave  the  testimony  that  you 
find  in  exhibit  1  ? 

Dr.  LuxoN.  You  mean  appeared  in  the  president's  office? 

Mr.  Clardy.  Whatever  you  want  to  call  it. 

Dr.  LuxoN.  No,  that  was  an  informal  hearing.  The  president 
stated  to  him,  as  is  shown  in  the  beginning  of  the  transcript,  that  he 
was  not  under  oath.  That  he  could  say  anything  that  he  wanted  to ; 
that  his  friends  or  his  counsel  could  say  anything  that  they  wished. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Were  any  sworn  statements  of  any  kind  submitted 
at  that  meeting  or  that  hearing? 

Dr.  LuxON.  No,  there  are  18  pages  of  exhibits  in  the  last  part  of 
that  transcript,  and  they  are  mostly  letters,  clippings  of  a  newspaper 
ad,  and  other  clippings;  no  sworn  statements. 

We  conducted  this  as  an  administrative  hearing  informally  as 
a  hearing  within  the  walls  of  the  university,  just  as  guidance  to  the 
president,  as  what  to  do  in  the  decisions  as  to  whether  Dr.  Darling 
was  a  fit  person  to  remain  a  member  of  the  teaching  staff. 

Mr.  Clardy.  That  was  my  understanding.  We  wanted  that  clear- 
ly in  the  record.    Thank  you. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Mr.  Walter? 

Dr.  Luxon,  thank  you  very  much  for  coming  to  testify.  You  are 
excused. 

(Wherepon  the  witness  was  excused.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  at  this  point,  I  should  like  to  get  per- 
mission of  the  Chair  to  read  into  the  record  the  covering  letter  to 
Darling  exhibit  No.  2,  signed  by  James  C.  Harris,  assistant  professor 
of  physics. 

Mr.  SciiERER.  You  may  do  so. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  covering  letter  on  the  outside  of  this  mimeo- 
graphed document,  Darling  exhibit  No.  2,  is  as  follows : 

To  Our  Colleagues  at  the  Ohio  State  University: 

The  Darling  case  is  of  the  greatest  importance  to  the  defense  of  the  rights 
of  teachers,  to  the  cause  of  academic  freedom,  and  to  the  safeguarding  and 
strengthening  of  the  rules  of  tenure.  In  this  regard,  I  respectfully  submit  with 
Professor  Darling's  approval  the  following  facts  on  the  case  to  our  colleagues 
in  order  that  they  may  be  informed  of  the  issue  to  be  met. 

James  C.  Harris, 
Assistaiit  Professor  of  Physics. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA    1781 

Then  follows  this  lengthy  docnment  of  the  statement,  presumably, 
by  Professor  Darling,  but  I  may  add,  sir,  that  there  is  no  signature 
on  this  wliatsoever. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  The  statement  is  designated  "Darling  statement," 
is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes,  sir;  printed  and  typed  at  the  top  is  "Darling 
statement";  those  words. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  ]\Iay  I  ask  if  you  compared  that  statement  in  the 
exhibit  from  which  you  are  reading  with  the  statement  made  by  Dr. 
Darling  as  shown  by  the  transcript  of  the  record  of  his  hearing  at 
Ohio  State  University  which  is  exhibit  1  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  believe,  sir,  they  are  not  word  for  word. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  They  are  not  word  for  word? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  We  have  not  compared  them  completely  word  for  word. 
I  have  just  gotten  this  here. 

Mr.  Clardy,  You  just  saw  No.  1  a  few  minutes  ago  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  No.  2. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  have  seen  another  copy  of  Darling  exhibit  No.  2 
before  coming  here,  I  take  it? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Just  a  moment. 

I  would  like,  sir,  now,  to  ask  permission  to  read  into  the  record  a 
letter  from  exhibit  No.  1  which  is  the  transcript.  There  are  2  letters ; 
1  on  page  40  and  1  on  page  41  of  the  transcript.  They  are  both 
addressed  to  Professor  Williams  here,  and  they  are  signed  by  Lloyd 
C.  Emmons,  and  I  should  like  to  ask  Congressman  Clardy  if  he  could 
explain  for  the  record  who  Lloyd  C.  Emmons  is. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Well,  he  was  dean  at  the  college  in  my  hometown, 
Michigan  State  College,  for  many  years,  one  of  the  most  respected 
members  of  the  faculty,  a  personal  friend  of  mine,  one  whose  word 
is  as  good  as  gold. 

Mr.  KuNziG,.  From  the  record,  then,  sir,  with  yoiu-  permission,  may 
I  read? 

Mr.  ScHERER.  You  may. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Williams  testified : 

I  gathered  from  this  he  had  heen  a  dean  of  some  kind  and  is  now  on  the 
athletic  council.  Both  of  these  letters  are  dated  March  24,  1953,  and  I  re- 
quested these  later  than  I  did  the  letter  from  the  physics  department,  because 
I  thought  that  the  physics  department  letters  were  more  pertinent  to  our  own 
problems  here,  and  they  were  more  recent  and  more  recent  information. 

"Dear  Professor  Wiliams  :  I  am  glad  to  make  this  statement  concerning  the 
experience  with  Dr.  B.  T.  Darling  while  he  \\as  a  member  of  our  staff.  He 
came  here  on  a  temporary  8  months'  appointment  effective  April  1,  193'.),  and 
he  remained  with  us  for  an  additional  year  until  August  31,  1941.  Dr.  Darling 
had  a  good  background  of  mathematics  training  and  exhibited  a  thorough 
knowledge  of  his  subject.  The  only  criticism  we  had  of  him  while  he  was 
here  was  that  he  was  a  bit  irresponsible  in  looking  after  details  that  must  be 
attended  to  by  any  staff  member.  We  were  not  unhappy  when  he  decided  to 
seek  employment  elsewhere. 
"Very  truly  yours, 

"Lloyd  C.  Emmons." 

Then  he  [Dr.  Williams]  goes  on  to  say : 

In  the  same  envelope  is  another  letter  which  should  be  made  a  part  of  the 
record  here.   This  letter  is  as  follows  : 

"Dear  Professor  Williams  :  I  am  enclosing  a  letter  of  the  type  that  I  might 
have  written  for  a  year  or  two  after  Dr.  Darling  left  us. 

"In  the  next  year  or  two  following  that,  I  had  submitted  to  me  information 
from  some  alumni  who  had  known  him  quite  well  and  who  now,  as  teachers, 

35663—53 4 


1782    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

felt  that  they  should  furnish  me  with  certain  information,  since  they  did  not 
know  that  Mr.  Darling  had  left  Michigan  State  College.  I  cannot  give  you  the 
names  of  these  people,  due  to  the  fact  that  the  records  in  my  office  have  been 
disposed  of  since  I  retired  from  the  deanship,  but  I  remember  well  that  there 
was  a  positive  statement  that  Dr.  Darling  had  strong  communistic  leanings,  and 
they  were  willing,  if  necessary,  to  testify  as  to  their  knowledge  about  him  if 
the  occasion  should  arise. 

"I  am  certain  you  will  not  care  to  use  this  later  material,  but  I  thought  it  in 
the  interest  of  completeness  you  should  know  about  it. 
"Sincerely  yours, 

"Lloyd  C.  Emmons." 

This  may  have  been  a  breach  of  confidence,  but  I  feel  the  department  should 
put  all  the  evidence  at  the  disposal  of  the  president  and  therefore,  I  should 
like  to  present  these  letters. 

That  concludes  the  portion  that  I  should  like  to  read  from  Darling 
exhibit  No.  1. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  At  this  point,  I  would  like  to  make  a  statement  for 
the  record. 

When  Dr.  Darling  testified  before  the  Un-American  Activities 
Committee  in  Washington  on  Friday,  March  13  of  this  year,  among 
the  questions  asked  him  and  the  answers  given  were  the  following : 

Question  by  Mr.  Kunzig : 

At  the  time  the  Air  Force  invited  you  to  go  to  its  conference,  was  that  after 
the  time  you  left  Michigan  State? 

Mr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  Professor,  you  say  you  were  invited  through  the  Air  Force. 
Who  extended  the  invitation? 

Mr.  Darling.  Well,  as  I  recall,  it  was  Mr.  Chapman. 

Mr.  Walter.  Do  you  know  what  his  first  name  was? 

Mr.  Darling.  No,  I  don't  know  his  first  name. 

Mr.  Walter.  What  position  did  he  hold  in  the  Air  Force? 

Mr.  Darling.  I  don't  know  that. 

Mr.  Walter.  Was  he  a  civilian  employee  of  the  Air  Force? 

Mr.  Darling.  Yes,  I  believe  he  was. 

Mr.  Walter.  Where  did  you  meet  him.  Professor? 

Mr.  Darling.  I  met  him  at  Ohio  State  University. 

Mr.  Walter.  Who  introduced  you  to  him? 

Mr.  Darling.  Let's  see ;  I  don't  know  whether  it  was  Professor  Neilsen  or 
Professor  Williams.     I  don't  recollect,  Mr.  Walter. 

Mr.  Walter.  Were  either  of  those  professors  members  of  the  Commimist 
Party? 

Mr.  Darung.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

The  reasons  Dr.  Darling  had  previously  given  in  his  testimony  were 
that  to  answer  such  a  question  might  tend  to  incriminate  him. 

From  this  testimony,  it  is  obvious  that  Mr.  Walter  of  the  committee 
should  have  asked  Dr.  Darling  who  introduced  him  to  Mr.  Chapman, 
since  Dr.  Darling  could  not  remember  Mr.  Chapman's  first  name. 

When  Dr.  Darling  said  it  was  either  a  Professor  Neilsen  or  a  Pro- 
fessor Williams  who  introduced  him  to  this  man  Chapman,  it  was 
proper  for  Mr.  Walter,  who  at  that  time  had  never  heard  of  these 
professors,  to  ask  Dr.  Darling  if  they  were  members  of  the  Communist 
Party. 

When  Dr.  Darling  refused  to  answer  this  question  on  the  ground 
that,  to  do  so  might  incriminate  him,  he  did  a  serious  injustice  to 
both  of  these  Ohio  State  professors. 

It  is  the  keenest  desire  of  the  committee  that  no  adverse  reflection 
of  any  kind  attach  to  either  Professor  H.  H.  Neilsen,  or  Professor  Dud- 
ley Williams  as  the  result  of  Dr.  Darling's  testimony.  Therefore, 
our  staff  has  carefully  checked  the  committee's  records,  and  I  am 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1783 

pleased  to  report  that  it  has  found  nothing  which  might  in  any  way 
reflect  upon  the  loyalty  or  professional  ability  of  these  two  Ohio 
State  professors. 

I  might  also  add  that  the  committee  has  received  the  utmost  coopera- 
tion from  the  president  and  the  board  of  trustees  of  Ohio  State 
University.  This  investigation  of  two  individuals  who  were  em- 
ployed at  the  university,  one  of  whom  was  also  working  on  a  project 
from  the  United  States  Air  Force  at  the  same  time,  should  not  cast 
any  adverse  reflection  whatsoever  on  the  university.  In  fact,  Ohio 
State,  as  we  all  know,  is  one  of  the  truly  great  universities  of  this 
country. 

Mr.  Counsel,  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  Clardt.  Before  you  do  that,  I  think  I  ought  to  add,  Mr. 
Chairman,  the  fact  that  since  I  was  present  at  that  original  hearing, 
I  had  absolutely  now  knowledge,  of  course,  of  either  of  the  gentle- 
men members  of  this  faculty  who  were  mentioned  and  while  I  didn't 
inquire  about  it,  it  was  merely  because  my  colleague,  Mr.  Walter, 
asked  the  question  first.  They  were  questions  that  necessarly  needed 
to  be  asked,  but  I  also  am  thoroughly  convinced,  as  is  the  entire  com- 
mittee, that  a  great  injustice  was  done  in  bringing  these  names  in, 
especially  when  the  witness  had  refused  under  all  circumstances  to 
give  us  the  names  or  admit  knowledge  about  a  whole  host  of  others. 
Why  he  chose  to  bring  in  those  names  of  innocent  people,  only  he  can 
answer. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Well,  I  think  what  we  have  said  clarifies  the  record. 

You  may  proceed. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  should  like  to  call  as  the  next  witness,  Mr.  Chairman, 
Mrs.  Barbara  Darling. 

Mr.  FoRER.  Before  we  enter  appearance,  we  would  like  to  enter  our 
objection  to  the  absence  of  a  quorum  of  the  full  committee. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Your  objection  will  be  noted. 

Mrs.  Darling,  will  you  stand  and  be  sworn  ? 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  evidence  you  shall  give  to  this 
subcommittee  shall  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but 
the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  do. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Proceed. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  notice  you  are  accompanied  by  counsel;  will  you 
state  your  name  for  the  record  ? 

Mr.  Forer.  Joseph  Forer. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Your  office  address? 

Mr.  Forer.  711  14th  Street  NW.,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  are  the  same  person  who  appeared  before  us  in 
other  hearings,  in  Washington,  particularly  ? 

Mr.  Forer.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  give  your  full  name  for  the  record,  Mrs. 
Darling,  please  ? 

TESTIMONY  OP  BARBAEA  ANN  DARLING,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HER 

COUNSEL,  JOSEPH  PORER 

Mrs.  Darling.  My  full  name  is  Mrs.  Barbara  Ann  Darling. 

Mr,  Kunzig.  What  is  your  address  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Temporarily  at  59  West  Ninth  Avenue,  Columbus. 


1784    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Could  you  give  the  committee  a  resume  of  your  educa- 
tional background  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Starting  when  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Well,  starting  from  high  school. 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  attended  high  school  in  Frontenac,  Kans.,  for  S 
years.  The  last  year,  I  spent  at  Pittsburg  High  School  in  Pittsburg, 
Kans. 

I  attended  Kansas  State  Teachers  College. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  year  was  that  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  recall  the  year ;  it  has  been  so  long  ago. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  am  sure  not  that  long  ago  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Well,  let  me  think.  Possibly  around  in  the  sum- 
mer of  1936.  However,  I  don't  believe  that  I  finished  the  quarter 
there,  due  to  financial  difficulties.  Therefore,  I  don't  think  that  they 
have  a  record  of  my  having  attended.    I  don't  know  about  that. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  continue  with  your  educational  back- 
ground ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Following  that,  I  went  to  the  University  of  Wiscon- 
sin. That  was  in  the  beginning — bygmning  in  the  fall  of  1946.  I 
spent  two  semesters  there,  and  then  transferred  to  the  Ohio  State 
University  in  the  fall  quarter  of  1947. 

I  was  at  the  Ohio  State  University  from  1947  to  1951,  with  the  ex- 
ception of  one  spring  quarter  which  I  spent  at  Mexico  City  College. 
That  was  the  spring  quarter  of  1950.  I  received  a  bachelor  of  arts 
degree  cum  laude  from  the  Ohio  State  University  in  the  spring  quar- 
ter of  1951. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Does  that  conclude  your  formal  education  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Now,  could  you  give  us  a  detailed  account  of  your 
employment  record,  where  you  have  worked,  giving  us  the  dates,  if 
you  please,  as  you  go  along,  to  the  best  of  your  recollection. 

Mrs.  Darling.  As  nearly  as  I  can  recollect,  I  worked  in  Chicago 
for  the  F.  W.  Wool  worth  Co.  and  for  Marshall  Field  for  a  while, 
for  the  Walgreen  Drug  Store,  and  for  the  Montgomery  Ward  central 
time  payment  office  in  the  Merchandise  Mart  there.  Then  I  moved  to 
Detroit,  Mich. 

Mr  Kunzig.  When  was  that? 

Mrs.  Darling.  It  seems  to  me  that  that  was  in  1937,  in  the  latter  part 
of  the  year,  and  I  was  employed  at  the  L.  A.  Young  Co.  there,  and  I 
worked  there  only,  I  would  say,  about  a  month  and  a  half.  I  was  not 
familiar  with  the  layoffs,  and  so  forth,  the  very  frequent  layoffs  that 
occur  in  the  automotive  industry,  so  I  was  laid  off,  having  been  one  of 
the  last  employed  by  that  company.  Then  I  worked  wherever  I  could 
get  a  job,  in  supermarkets 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Wliere? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Supermarkets,  working  in  supermarkets,  in  drug 
stores,  and  then  I  was  employed  with  the  Bull  Dog  Electric  Co. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Wlien  was  it  you  were  employed  by  the  Bull  Dog 
Electric  Co? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  recall  the  year  at  all. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Was  it  1945, 1950-  can  you  approximate? 

Mrs.  Darling.  No,  it  was  possibly  around  1939  or  1940,  perhaps. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  I  see,  you  are  taking  this  in  chronological  order,  I 
assume  ? 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1785 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes;  I  can  remember  the  places  I  worked  chrono- 
logically, but  I  was  never  concerned  about  the  dates  when  I  worked 
some  place.  I  didn't  think  it  would  ever  be  important  to  remember 
that,  so  I  have  not  kept  these  things  in  mind. 

After  that,  I  was  employed  by  the  United  Electrical,  Radio  and 
Machine  Workers  of  America,  affiliated  with  the  Congress  of  Indus- 
trial Organizations. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Pardon ;  I  heard  you  name  the  union,  but  I  didn't  get 
all  of  it,  or  what  you  were  doing.    Would  you  repeat  that  for  me? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes,  I  will  be  glad  to.  It  is  the  United  Electrical, 
Radio  and  Machine  Workers  of  America. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  were  employed  in  what  capacity  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  As  a  field  organizer  by  that  organization. 

Mr.  Clardy,  Can  you  give  us  some  approximation  of  the  time  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  The  time,  I  would  say  it  was  possibly  late  in  1942 
or  early  in  1943. 

Mr.  Clardy.  This  vras  in  Detroit  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  How  long  were  you  working  with  the  UE? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Again,  I  don't  recall  the  exact  date.  I  would  say 
it — I  worked  there  possibly  up  to  around  1944  or  1945. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Who  was  your  district  director,  if  you  recall  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  District  director? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Yes. 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  know  if  we  had  an  office  of  that  nature. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Do  you  recall  who  was  your  direct  employer  ? 

Mrs,  Darling.  The  international  union. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  The  name  of  the  person  under  whom  you  worked 
directly. 

Mrs.  Darling.  Well,  I  was  employed  by  the  international  union  in 
New  York,  I  think  it  is  located. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  You  had  no  single  boss  over  you,  so  to  speak,  anywhere 
along  the  line  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Not  that  I  recall.  We  were  responsible  to'  the 
international  union. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  You  just  walked  in  and  reported  somewhere  to  an 
"international  union"  ?     There  must  have  been  a  person. 

Mrs.  Darling,  We  reported  our  activities  to  the  international  union. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  To  what  person  did  you  report ;  the  human  being  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Oh,  let's  see 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Who  was  your  immediate  superior  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  am  trying  to  think.  That  is  what  I  am  trying 
to  think. 

Well,  there  is  an  office  called  secretary  and  treasurer  and  then  there 
is  one  called  organization  director.  We  reported  to  the  organiza- 
tional director  of  the  international  union. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  And  who  was  that  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  His  name,  as  I  recall  it  now,  I  believe  was  Mr.  Matles. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Eben  Matles  or  James  Matles  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  James  Matles. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Who,  Mrs.  Darling,  from  the  Detroit  area,  recom- 
mended that  you  be  placed  on  the  payroll  there  as  an  organizer? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  recall  who  recommended  me. 


1786    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  it  have  been  Matles  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  No,  I  don't  think  it  was. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  you  know,  of  course,  that  the  UE  was  expelled 
from  the  CIO  because  of  Communist  domination,  do  you  not? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  read  in  the  paper  that  it  was  expelled  from  the 
CIO. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  That  is  all  you  know  about  it  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  That  is  all  I  know  about  it. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Would  you  continue,  then,  with  your  record  of  em- 
ployment ?     You  are  up  to  1944  or  1945,  working  for  the  UE. 

Mrs.  Darling.  Then  I  went  to  work  as  a  secretary  in  the  [Interna- 
tional] Fur  and  Leather  Workers'  Union  in  Detroit. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  When  was  that  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  That  was  after  I  left  the  UE  and  went  to  work.  I 
don't  remember  the  exact  time  it  began  there,  sometime  in  1945,  I 
would  say. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Now,  you  know,  of  course,  don't  you,  that  the  Fur  and 
Leather  Workers'  Union  also  was  expelled  from  the  CIO  union  or 
organization  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  read  about  that  in  the  papers. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Do  you  know  any  more  than  just  what  you  read  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  No. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  mean  you  didn't  even  hear  it  talked  about  in 
circles  where  you  were  working  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Well,  I  was  in  the  university  then.  I  don't  re- 
member when  they  were  expelled,  but  I  was  not  working  with  any 
labor  organization  then.     I  was  a  student,  I  believe,  at  the  university. 

If  you  can  tell  me  what  year  it  was,  I  can  tell  you  where  I  was  at 
the  time. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Mrs.  Darling,  who  was  the  district  director  there, 
if  you  remember  ? 

Mrs. Darling.  Where? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  In  the  Fur  and  Leather  Workers'  Union  at  Detroit. 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  know  that  they  have  an  office  of  district 
director. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  You  don't  know  of  any  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  No. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Who  was  your  immediate  superior  there  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  The  head  of  the  office  where  I  was  working  was  Mr. 
Harold  Shapiro. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Do  you  know  Harold  Shapiro  to  be  a  Communist 
Party  member  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Did  you  know  a  Ben  Gold  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  No,  I  don't  know  him  personally.  He  is,  though,  the 
president — he  was  at  that  time  the  president  of  the  Fur  and  Leather 
Workers  Union. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  When  were  you  married,  Mrs.  Darling? 

Mr.  Forer.  Do  you  mean  to  Mr.  Darling? 

Mr,  Kunzig.  If  there  was  a  previous  marriage,  give  us  the  date  and 
your  name  under  that  marriage. 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  know  that  that  is  important. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  I  am  sorry ;  I  can't  hear  you. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1787 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  know  that  the  name  is  important  of  that 
marriage. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  feel  the  date  is  important. 

Mrs.  Darling.  January  of  1939. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yon  became  then,  Mrs.  who  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Mrs.  Barbara  Springer. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  was  that  marriage  severed  by  divorce  or 

Mrs.  Darling.  It  was. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  recall  the  date  when  that  took  place  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  No,  I  don't. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Wlien  did  you  become  Mrs.  Darling? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  became  Mrs.  Darling  in  1946. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  In  1946? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know  the  date  of  the  marriage  ceremony  in 
1946? 

Mrs.  Darling.  No,  I  don't. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  mean  you  don't  know  your  wedding  date? 

Mrs.  Darling.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Well,  Mrs.  Darling,  that  is  a  little  hard  to  imagine. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Well,  you  have  the  certificate ;  don't  you  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  think  that  matters. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Ask  her  if  that  is  the  date. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Could  it  have  been  the  24th  day  of  August  1946? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  recall  the  date. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Even  if  I  refresh  your  memory,  Mrs.  Darling,  and  say 
that  the  certificate  of  marriage  says : 

Between  Mr.  Byron  Thorwell  Darling  and  ]\Irs.  Barbara  Springer,  I  hereby 
certify  in  accordance  with  the  above  license  the  persons  above-mentioned  were 
joined  in  marriage  at  Clinton,  County  of  Lenawee,  Mich.,  August  24,  1946,  in  the 
presence  of  Mabel  Van  Dusen  of  Clinton,  Mich.,  and  Anna  May  Lockner  of  St. 
Petersburg,  Fla. — 

And  signed — "L.  J.  Van  Dusen — justice,  magistrate,  or  justice, 
Clinton,  Mich. 

Does  that  refresh  your  memory  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  If  that  is  the  record. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  this  marked  "Mrs.  Darling  Exhibit  No.  1." 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Well,  if  that  is  a  certified  copy,  Mr.  Counsel,  just  offer 
it  in  evidence. 

Mr,  KuNziG.  All  right ;  I  offer  it  in  evidence.  Certified  copy  of  the 
marriage  license  and  certificate  of  marriage  of  Byron  Thorwell 
Darling  and  Barbara  Ann  Springer,  as  Barbara  Darling  exhibit  No.  1. 

Mr.  ScHERER,  It  will  be  so  received. 

(Barbara  Darling  exhibit  No.  1  was  marked  for  identification  and 
received  in  evidence.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  If  this  says  August  24,  you  are  saying,  Mrs.  Darling, 
that  it  probably  was  August  24  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Well,  you  have  the  record  there. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes,  but  you  were  married  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes,  I  know. 

Mr.  Scherer.  I  think  we  have  pursued  that  far  enough,  Mr.  Counsel. 
The  record  speaks  for  itself.    Proceed  to  the  next  question. 

Mr.  Forer.  What  was  that  year? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  August,  24,  1946. 


1788    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  ScHEEER.  Let's  proceed,  Mr.  Counsel,  with  the  next  question. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I.  would  like  to  request  a  5-minute 
recess. 

Mr.  ScHEEER.  We  will  have  a  5-minute  recess. 

(A  short  recess  was  taken.) 

Mr.  SciiERER.  You  may  proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Darling,  if  you  haven't  stated  for  the  record, 
will  you  state  what  type  of  work  you  did  for  the  Fur  and  Leather 
Workers'  Union,  was  it  secretarial  or  organizational  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  stated  I  was  a  secretary.    It  was  just  office  work. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  said  you  were  secretary  and  v.hat,  I  am  sorry,  I 
didn't  hear. 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  was  secretary  there,  it  was  office  work. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Office  work? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  How  long  did  you  remain  with  the  Fur  and  Leather 
Workers  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Until  July  before  leaving  Detroit. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  date  was  that? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  recall  the  date  of  leaving  there. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Well,  now,  you  are  up  to  1945  when  you  left  the  UE 
and  went  to  the  Fur  and  Leather  Workers.  How  long  did  you  work 
with  them  to  the  best  of  your  memory  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  1  would  say  it  was — I  can't  give  you  the  specific 
month.    Probably  the  end  of  June  or  July  of  1946. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  June  or  July  of  1946  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  When  you  left  Detroit,  where  did  you  go  then  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  went  to  Madison,  Wis. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  work  there  ?  We  are  still  going  through  your 
working  employment. 

Mrs.  Darling.  No;  I  didn't  work  there.  I  went  to  the  university 
there. 

Mr.  Clardy.  I  didn't  hear  that. 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  went  to  the  university  at  Madison. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  As  a  student  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Is  there  anything  further  which  you  wish  to  add  to 
your  employment  record  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes ;  I  worked  after  being  a  student  at  the  university 
hospital  part-time  during  my  student  days  and  after  receiving  my 
degree  from  the  university,  I  became  employed  in  the  department  of 
romance  languages  at  the  university  as  secretary  of  the  department. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  speaking  of  Ohio  State  or  AVisconsin  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Ohio  State. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Ohio  State? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Counsel,  I  am  confused  as  to  dates. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  am,  too. 

Will  you  give  us,  to  the  best  of  your  knowledge,  the  dates?  When 
you  had  gone  to  Madison,  carry  on  from  there,  please. 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  went  to  Madison  in  the  fall  of  1946  and  returned  to 
Ohio  State,  to  Columbus,  or  came  to  Columbus,  I  should  say,  in  the 
fall  of  1947,  and  I  became  involved  in  the  university  then. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1789 

During  my  student  work,  I  worked  part  time  in  the  university  hos- 
pital, and  after  receiving  my  degree,  and  also  during  my  last  year, 
1  worked  part  time  in  the  department  of  romance  languages. 

After  receiving  my  degree,  I  became  secretary  in  the  department  of 
romance  languages. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  This  is  Ohio  State  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  May  I  inquire  at  this  point,  I  am  a  little  confused  on 
dates  yet,  Mrs.  Darling.  I  thought  I  understood  you  to  say  that  you 
went  to  Wisconsin  in  July  of  1946.    Did  I  correctly 

Mrs.  Darling.  No  ;  I  went  to  Wisconsin  in — beginning  in  the  fall 
term  of  1946. 

Mr.  Clardy.  The  documentary  evidence  dealing  with  your  marriage,. 

1  think,  was  August  of  1946.  Now,  did  you  go  to  Wisconsin  imme- 
diately after  the  marriage  or  just  before? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Afterward. 
Mr.  Clardy.  Just  afterward? 
Mrs.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Then  you  stayed  there  approximately  a  year  and  came 
here  to  Columbus  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  went  to  school  at  the  University  of  Wisconsin  for 

2  semesters  and  then  I  came  to  Columbus.  I  arrived  in  Columbus 
in  the  summer  of  1947  and  I  began  my  studies  at  the  Ohio  State  Uni- 
versity in  the  fall  of  1947. 

Mr.  Clardy.  That  clears  it  up.  It  was  less  than  a  year  at  Wiscon- 
sin before  you  came  here? 

Mrs.  Dari.ing.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Darling,  turning  back  for  a  moment  to  the  time 
that  you  were  in  Detroit,  can  you  give  us  for  the  record,  to  the  best  of 
your  memory,  the  residences  or  residence  that  you  had  during  the 
time  you  were  in  Detroit  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Well,  I  lived  in  a  number  of  places.  I  recall  hav- 
ing lived  on  East  Forrest — I  don't  know  the  address  there.  I  lived 
on  Mitchell  Avenue. 

Mr.  Clardy.  What  is  the  last  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Mitchell  Avenue,  and  I  lived  on  Sylvester  Street. 

Mr.  Clardy.  That  is  awfully  difficult  to  hear  for  some  reason  or 
other. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  When  you  came  to  Columbus,  you  said  you  worked 
for  a  time  in  the  university  hospital  here,  is  that  correct? 

Mrs.  Darling.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  ever  know  a  Thomas  F.  X.  Dombrowski  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  decline  to  to  answer  that  question  on  the  basis  of 
my  right  on  the  first  amendment  and  my  privilege  in  the  fifth  amend- 
ment not  to  be  a  witness  against  myself. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  In  other  words,  you  feel  that  in  some  way  by  answer- 
ing whether  or  not  you  knew  Thomas  F.  X.  Dombrowski,  you  might 
incriminate  yourself? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  might  incriminate  myself. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know  him  to  be  the  editor  of  the  publication 
Glos  Ludowy  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  the  question  for  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 


1790    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  Ktjnzig.  Did  you  know  Thomas  F.  X.  Dombrowski  to  be  a  mem- 
ber of  the  Communist  party  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  the  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  May  I  state  for  the  record  that  Thomas  F.  X.  Dom- 
browski, who  has  been  identified  as  a  Communist  Party  member,  ap- 
peared before  this  committee  and  refused  to  answer  the  questions  on 
the  ground  that  he  might  incriminate  himself. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  You  say  he  has  been  identified  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  May  I  ask  one  question  ? 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Did  you  know  there  was  such  a  publication  as  that 
described  by  counsel?  I  am  not  asking  about  your  connection  with 
this  man,  but  merely,  did  you  have  any  knowledge  about  the 
publication  ? 

Mr.  FoRER.  May  we  liave  the  name  of  that  again  ? 

Mr.  Clardy.  Yes,  I  would  like  to  have  Mr.  Kunzig  repeat  it. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Glos  Ludowy. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Did  you  know  there  was  such  a  publication? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Well,  I  heard  of  the  publication. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Did  you  know  a  Kuth  Dombrowski  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Is  she  the  former  wife  of  Thomas  F.  X.  Dombrowski  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  I  have  a  document  marked  "Barbara  Darling,  Exhibit 
No.  2,"  for  identification,  and  I  should  like  to  ask  Mr.  Appell  to  show 
this  to  you.  This  is  an  employment  application  from  the  university 
hospital,  and  there  is  not  a  signature,  but  rather  a  printed  name, 
Mrs.  Ruth  Dombrowski,  on  the  back.  I  will  ask  you  if  that  is  correct, 
and  if  you  see  that  name  there  (indicating)  as  a  reference  for  your 
application  for  employment  at  the  university  hospital  here  at  the 
Ohio  State  University  ? 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Does  the  exhibit  indicate,  Mr.  Counsel,  that  she  (Mrs. 
Darling)  gave  this  person  as  a  reference  ? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  The  exhibit  speaks  for  itself,  sir.  I  will  ask  that 
the  exhibit  be  passed  up  to  you  after  it  is  identified.  I  don't  have 
it  in  front  of  me  now. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Is  it  an  application  for  employment  filed  with  the 
hospital  here  ? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  That  is  correct,  sir. 

Mr.  Walter.  Will  you  read  the  question,  please,  Mr.  Reporter? 

(Last  question  was  so  read.) 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes,  I  do. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Did  you  know  the  Ruth  Dombrowski  whose  name 
appears  on  the  back  of  that  document  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  What  is  the  question,  please? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Did  you  know  Mrs.  Ruth  Dombrowski  whose  name 
appears  on  the  back  of  that  document? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes,  I  did  know  her. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Is  Mrs.  Ruth  Dombrowski  the  Ruth  Dombrowski 
who  was  the  wife  of  Thomas  F.  X.  Dombrowski  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  for  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1791 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  So  you  will  go  as  far  as  admitting  that  you  knew  her 
but  no  further  ? 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Mr.  Counsel,  I  think  she  has  answered. 

Mr.  KuNziCx.  Will  you  return  that,  please? 

Mrs.  Darling,  during  the  time  you  were  in  Detroit,  were  you  a 
member  of  the  First  Congressional  District  Communist  Party  in 
Detroit? 

Mrs.  Darung.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  for  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  are  you  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  at 
this  time  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  for  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Were  you  ever  or  have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the 
Communist  Party  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  for  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Now,  Mrs.  Darling,  this  document  marked  "Barbara 
Darling,  Exhibit  No.  2,"  for  identification  which  you  have  just  looked 
at  is  not  signed  as  such.  Did  you  turn  in  this  document  as  an  appli- 
cation for  employment  at  the  university  hospital  ?  Is  this  your  appli- 
cation, in  other  words? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  made  an  application  at  the  university  hospital. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Is  this  your  application  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  know  that  that  particular  one  is,  but  I 

Mr.  FoRER.  Let  us  see  it,  please. 

Mr.  Walter.  It  is  a  photostatic  copy. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  understand.  Witness,  this  is  a  photostatic  copy 
of  an  original  document  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes,  it  seems  to  be. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  And  did  you  give  the  name  of  Mrs.  Dombrowski  as  a 
reference  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  It  appears  there  that  I  did. 

Mr,  Kunzig.  Did  you? 

Mrs.  Darling.  If  that  is  the  document,  I  suppose  I  did.  It  appears 
on  the  record. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Counsel,  was  this  photostatic  copy  acquired  from  the 
hospital  record  ? 

Mr.  Appell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Yes,  it  was. 

I  have  here  in  front  of  me  a  document  marked  "Barbara  Darling 
Exhibit  No.  3"  for  identification.  This  document  is  an  oath  of  al- 
legiance executed  by  all  officers,  instructors,  and  employees  of  Ohio 
State  University,  marked  "The  Department  of  Hospital."  I  should 
like  to  read  this  into  the  record,  what  appears  on  this  document : 

I,  Barbara  A.  Darling,  do  solemnly  swear  or  affirm  that  I  will  support  and 
defend  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  and  the  Constitution  of  the  State 
of  Ohio  against  all  enemies,  foreign  and  domestic ;  that  I  will  bear  true  faith 
and  allegiance  to  the  same ;  that  I  take  this  obligation  freely  and  without  any 
mental  reservations  or  for  the  purpose  of  evasion ;  I  will  well  and  faithfully 
discharge  the  duties  of  the  office  or  position  of  which  I  am  employed,  so  help  me 
God. 

I  further  swear  or  affirm  that  I  do  not  advocate  nor  am  I  a  member  of  any 
party  or  organization  that  advocates  the  overthrow  of  the  United  States  Govern- 
ment or  the  Government  of  the  State  of  Ohio  by  force  or  violence,  and  during 


1792    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA 

such  time  as  I  am  an  officer  or  instructor  of  Ohio  State  University,  I  will  not 
advocate  or  become  a  member  of  any  party  or  organization  that  advocates  the 
overthrow  of  the  Government  of  the  United  States  or  the  State  of  Ohio  by  force 
or  violence. 

The  signature  appears  as  Barbara  A.  Darling,  sworn  to  this  29th 
day  of  June,  1949,  Columbus,  Ohio,  before  what  looks  like  A.  J.  Tann, 
notary  public. 

I  would  like  to  ask  you,  Mr.  Appell,  to  show  this  "Barbara  Darling 
Exhibit  No.  3"  to  Mrs.  Darling. 

I  ask  you,  Mrs.  Darling,  whether  you  signed  that  docunnent  of 
which  this  is  a  photostatic  copj'. 

Mrs.  Darlincx.  Yes,  I  did.  I  signed  this  photostatic  copy.  I  signed 
the  original,  rather. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Darling,  I  should  like  to  ask  you  again  if  in  1949 
you  made  that  statement  and  swore  to  it  before  a  notary  public,  I 
will  ask  you  today  before  a  Committee  of  Congress  of  the  United  States 
of  America,  do  you  advocate  or  are  you  a  member — and  I  use  the  exact 
words  that  appeared  here  in  1949,  of  any  political  party  or  organiza- 
tion that  advocates  the  overthrow  of  the  Government  of  the  United 
States  or  the  government  of  the  State  of  Ohio  by  force  or  violence  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  signed  that  oath  and  it  is  a  true  oath  taken  in  good 
faith.  I  do  not  believe  in  force  or  violence  and  I  have  never  used 
force  in  my  life  and  I  have  never  used  violence. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Well,  I  ask  you  again  to  answer  the  question.  Do 
you  advocate  or  are  you  a  member  of  any  political  party  or  organiza- 
tion that  advocates  the  overthrow  of  the  Government  of  the  United 
States  or  the  government  of  the  State  of  Ohio  by  force  or  violence? 

I  am  asking  you  this  in  1953,  now,  today. 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  believe  by  my  previous  remarks  I  have  said  that  I 
do  not  belong  to  unj  organization  that  believes  in  the  overthrow  of 
the  government  by  force  or  violence,  that  I  am  defending  the  Con- 
stitution. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  asked  you  previously,  I  believe,  whether  you  are 
now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  and  you  declined  to  answer, 
giving  as  your  reason  the  fifth  amendment.  Am  I  correct  in  under- 
standing that  you  are  saying  as  to  this  question  that  you  do  not  belong 
to  any  organization  that  advocates  the  overthrow  of  the  Governrpent 
of  the  United  States  by  force  or  violence  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  That  is  true. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Then,  let  me  ask  you  again,  are  you  now  a  member  of 
the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  basis  of  the 
fifth  amendment,  not  to  be  a  witness  against  myself. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Well,  do  you  believe,  Mrs.  Darling,  that  the  Com- 
munist Party  is  not  out  to  overthrow  the  Government  of  the  United 
States  by  force  or  violence  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Would  you  repeat  the  question,  please  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  believe  that  the  Communist  Party  is  not  out 
to  overthrow  the  Government  of  the  United  States  by  force  or  violence? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Do  I  believe  it  is  not  out  to  do  that  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes. 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  know  whether  it  is  or  not. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  don't  know  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  That  is  right.  I  don't  have  any  evidence  that  it  is 
not,  and  I  have  no  evidence  that  it  is. 


COMAIUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1793 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  see.  Have  you  lived  in  this  country  for  the  last 
10  years  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Have  I  lived  in  this  country  for  the  last  10  years? 
I  have  lived  in  this  country  all  my  life,  sir.  I  was  born  here.  I  have 
lived  here  all  my  life  with  the  exception  of  a  few  months  that  I  spent 
in  Mexico. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  you  have  no  evidence  today  that  the  Communist 
Party  is  out  to  overthroAv  the  Government  by  force  or  violence? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  have  any  evidence  one  way  or  the  other. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  think  the  witness  has  answered  that.  We  will  not 
pursue  that  further,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Did  you  ever  know  a  person  by  the  name  of  Toby 
Baldwin  or  Bereniece  Baldwin,  the  same  person  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Did  you  attend  the  1944  convention  of  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  In  Michigan,  did  you  know  the  membership  secretary 
of  the  Communist  Party  in  Michigan  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Did  you  know  Toby  Baldwin  to  be  the  membership 
secretarv  of  the  Communist'Partv  in  Michigan  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  knoAv  Toby  Baldwin  as  the  person  who 
checked  the  credentials  at  that  convention  in  1944  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  Walter.  Where  was  the  convention  held  ? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  In  Detroit,  Mich.,  sir. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Is  Toby  Baldwin  known  by  any  other  name?  My 
recollection  is  that  her  correct  name  is  Bereniece. 

Let  the  record  show  that  Bereniece  Baldwin  and  Toby  Baldwin  are 
one  and  the  same  person. 

Mr.  Clardy.  The  record  should  also  show  that  she  has  been  a  wit- 
ness before  this  committee  at  the  city  of  Detroit  last  fall. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  The  record  will  so  indicate. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Were  you  ever  a  member  of  the  Mid-Tow^n  Club  of  the 
Communist  Party  in  JDetroit,  Mich  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Did  you  ever  know  a  Richard  F.  O'Hair? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  reasons  stated 
before. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Isn't  it  a  fact,  Mrs.  Darling,  that  you  were  a  member 
of  the  Communist  Party  cadre  for  the  State  of  Michigan  which  passed 
on  the  admissibility  of  the  party  to  become  members  of  the  party  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Were  you  in  1944  an  officer  of  the  Communist  Party 
in  Michigan? 


1794    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  What  office  does  the  record  indicate  she  held? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  That  will  be  developed  as  we  go  along. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Another  witness  will  develop  that  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  It  is  coming  right  now. 

Were  you  a  member  of  one  of  the  convention  committees  at  this 
convention  held  in  Detroit? 

Mrs.  Darling.  1  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  were  not  only  a  member,  but 
a  chairman  of  the  resolutions  committee  and  as  such,  an  officer? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Didn't  you  make  a  report  as  chairman  to  the  entire 
convention  on  the  resolutions  to  be  adopted  by  the  Communist  Party 
convention  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  aforemen- 
tion  reasons. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  no  further  questions  at  this 
time. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Mr.  Clardy,  do  you  have  any  questions  ? 

Mr.  Clardy.  I  have  just  1  or  2. 

Counsel,  did  you  develop  the  sequence  of  the  residence  in  Detroit? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  She  gave 

Mr.  Clardy.  The  last  one  she  named  was,  I  recall,  Sylvester  Avenue. 
Was  that  intended  to  be  the  last  place  at  which  you  lived  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  The  last  place  at  which  I  lived. 

Mr,  Clardy.  At  Detroit? 

Mrs.  Darling.  In  Detroit.  As  I  recall,  it  was.  It  may  not  have 
been. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Giving  approximations,  how  long  did  you  live  there^ 
working  backward  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  recall  when  I  moved  to  that  address. 

Mr.  Clardy.  One  or  two  or  three  years  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  have  any  recollection  of  how  long  I  lived 
there. 

Mr.  Clardy.  None  whatever? 

Mrs.  Darling.  None  whatever. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Well,  how  long  did  you  live  at  the  place  next  to  Syl- 
vester tliat  you  named  ?     I  have  forgotten  the  name  of  the  street. 

Mrs.  Darling.  On  Mitchell  Avenue  ? 

Mr.  Clardy.  Yes. 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  recall.     It  was  not  important. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  don't  recall  that? 

Mrs.  Darling.  No. 

Mr.  Clardy.  And  the  same  thing  is  true  of  the  first  place  you 
named. 

Mrs.  Darling.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Clardy.  But  Sylvester  was  the  last  place  you  lived  before  you 
went  to  Wisconsin  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Clardy.  In  Wisconsin,  you  lived  in  Madison? 

Mrs.  Darling.  Yes. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1795 

Mr.  Clardy.  Was  it  the  city  of  Madison  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Clardy.  That  is  all  I  have,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Mr.  "Walter? 

Mr.  "Walter.  No  questions. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  one  more  question,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Scherer.  "V^ery  well. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  From  the  date  of  your  marriage  application  which  is 
the  19th  day  of  August  1946,  and  it  states  the  address  as  7418  Syl- 
vester, Detroit  14,  Mich. 

Mr.  Clardy.  What  is  that  number  again  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  7418  Sylvester  Street,  Detroit,  Mich. 

From  that  date  until  the  time  you  left  Detroit,  did  you  live  con- 
tinuously at  7418  Sylvester  Street  ? 

Mrs.  Darling.  From  what  date? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  From  the  date  of  the  application  for  your  marriage 
license,  which  was  the  19th  day  of  August,  1946. 

Mrs.  Darling.  I  don't  recall  whether  I  lived  there  continuously. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  no  further  questions,  sir. 

Mr.  Scherer.  The  witness  will  be  excused. 

Take  a  5-minute  recess. 

(A  short  recess  was  taken.) 

Mr.  Scherer.  Let  the  record  show  that  the  witnesses  who  have  testi- 
fied in  this  hearing  today  are  excused  from  their  subpenas. 

Mr.  Clardy.  The  first  three,  you  mean  ? 

Mr.  Scherer.  Those  who  have  already  testified. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  next  witness  is  Prof.  Byron  Thor- 
well  Darling. 

Mr.  Forer.  May  we  record  the  usual  objection? 

Mr.  Scherer.  The  record  may  note  your  objection,  Mr.  Forer. 

Mr.  Forer.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Mr.  Darling,  will  you  stand  and  be  sworn  ? 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  shall  give  to  this  sub- 
committee shall  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  I  do. 

Mr.  Scherer.  You  may  proceed. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Darling,  I  realize  that  you  have  testified,  of  course, 
before  this  committee,  but  to  keep  the  record  straight,  I  would  like 
to  ask  your  full  name,  for  the  record. 

TESTIMONY  OF  BYRON  THOHWELL  DARLING,  ACCOMPANIED  BY 

HIS  COUNSEL,  JOSEPH  FORER 

Mr.  Darling.  Byron  Thorwell  Darling. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Pardon  me  just  a  minute ;  let  the  photographers  get 
their  pictures  and  retire. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  your  present  address,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  Temporarily  living  at  58  West  Ninth  Avenue,  Co- 
lumbus, Ohio. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Columbus,  Ohio  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  are  represented  by  counsel  ? 


1796    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Let  the  record  note  that  the  counsel  is  the  same  Mr.  Forer  who  ap- 
peared for  the  preceding  witness,  Mrs.  Darling. 

Professor  Darling,  would  you  state  for  the  record  your  educational 
background  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  Starting  at  high  school  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes,  sir ;  that  would  be  fine. 

Mr.  Darling.  I  graduated  from  Crane  Technical  High  School  in 
IQS'Q,  and  I  went  to  the  University  of  Illinois  from  1930  to  1936,  and 
I  went  to  the  University  of  Michigan  from  1936  to  1938,  and  then  I 
transferred  to  the  University  of  Wisconsin  in  1938  to  1939  and  I  got 
my  doctor's  degree  from  the  University  of  Michigan  in  1939,  and  then 
I  went  to  the  University — no,  I  think  that  was  the  educational 
background. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  then,  state  for  the  record,  please,  Professor  Dar- 
ling, your  employment  record,  taking  it  3^ear  by  year  and  giving  us  to 
the  best  of  your  ability  explicit  dates. 

Mr.  Darling.  I  was  employed  by  Western  Electric  Co.  from  1929 
to  1930,  and  at  Michigan  State  College  from  1939, 1  guess,  in  the  fall 
or  something  like  that,  to  1941,  and  I  worked  for  a  summer  session 
at  Pennsylvania  State  College  in  1941,  and  then  I  worked  at  the  United 
States  Rubber  Co.  from  1941  to  1946. 

Mr.  Clardy.  United  States  Rubber  Co.  from  1941  to  1946,  at  Detroit? 

Mr.  Darling.  United  States  Rubber  Co.  at  Detroit;  yes,  sir;  and  I 
worked  at  the  University  of  Wisconsin  in  the  spring  of — no,  in  the  fall 
quarter  of  1947,  and  at  the  Yale  University  in — pardon  me;  not  the 
fall  quarter;  it  was  the  fall  semester,  first  semester  for  1947  school 
year,  and  then  the  second  semester  at  Yale  University.  Then  I  came 
to  Ohio  State  University  in  the  summer  of  1947  and  worked  here  until 
just  recently. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Darling  testified,  I  just  want  to  get  the  record 
straight,  that  she  had  gone  to  Wisconsin  just  after  your  marriage  in 
x4.ugust  of  1946 ;  namely  in  the  fall  of  1946.  Did  you  go  also  in  the 
fall  of  1946?  You  just  said  1947  in  your  testimony.  You  probably 
made  an  error  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  I  meant  1946. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  I  wanted  to  straighten  out  the  record. 

Mr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you,  then,  concluded  your  employment  record 
and  places  in  which  you  have  taught  and  worked  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  I  believe  I  have. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  I  would  like  to  turn  to  another  phase  or  type  of 
work.  Professor  Darling,  and  ask  you  if  you  have  ever  worked  for  the 
United  States  Government,  in  any  way  received  pay  from  the  United 
States  Government  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  Well,  I  have  not  worked  directly  for  the  United  States 
Government. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  If  you  didn't  work  directly — I  realize  you  didn't  work 
directly  for  the  United  States  Government,  but  have  you  ever  worked 
indirectly  for  the  United  States  Government,  receiving  pay  which 
originated  from  the  Government? 

Mr.  Darling.  Well,  I  worked  on  a  Navy  project  at  the  University 
of  Wisconsin,  and  Yale.     That  was  in  1946-47. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  type  of  project  was  that.  Professor  Darling? 

Mr.  Darling.  That  Avas  theoretical  project  in  physics. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA    1797 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  didn't  get  the  answer. 

Mr.  Darling.  Theoretical  project  in  nuclear  phj^sics. 

Mr.  Scherer.  That  was  the  project  for  the  Navy? 

Mr.  Darling.  For  the  Navy,  yes. 

Mr.  CluVrdy.  Let's  get  a  better  description  of  that. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Could  you  go  into  more  detail? 

Mr.  Darling.  That  was  an  unclassified  project. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Unclassified  project ;  what  type  of  work  did  you  do? 

Mr.  Darling.  Theoretical  work;  theoretical  work. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  continue,  then?  Did  you  ever  work  at  any 
<other  lime  for  the  Government? 

Mr.  Darling.  Well,  while  at  Ohio  State  University,  I  worked  on  an 
Air  Force  project  which  was  an  unclassified  project  and  did  work  on 
the  theory  of  the  ozone  molecule. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  theor}-  of  the  ozone  molecule  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  How  long  a  period  of  time  did  you  work  for  the  United 
^States  Air  Force,  from  what  date  to  what  date? 

Mr.  Darling.  I  don't  remember  the  initial  date,  but  finally — I  don't 
remember  that  exactly,  but  I  believe  it  was  some  time  after  the  hearing 
before  this  committee. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Dr.  Darling,  have  you  ever  traveled  abroad,  to  Canada, 
for  example  i 

Mr.  Darling.  Yes,  I  have. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  When  vras  that,  sir? 

Mr.  Darling.  As  I  remember,  that  was  in  the  summer  of  1949. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  explain  to  the  committee  your  purposes  for 
going  to  Canada? 

Mr.  Darling.  My  purpose  for  going  to  Canada  was  to  attend  an 
lauroral  conference. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  spell  that  for  the  reporter  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  A-u-r-o-r-a-l. 

JNIr,  Kfnzig.  Would  you  explain  to  the  committee  what  that  con- 
ference was? 

Mr.  Darling.  That  conference  had  for  its  purpose  the  study  of  the 
physics  of  the  aurora ;  in  common  parlance,  that  means  northern  lights. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  the  United  States  Air  Force  sponsor  this? 

Mr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  they  sponsor  you,  or  invite  you? 

Mr.  Darling.  They  invited  me,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Did  that  have  any  connection  with  research  into  the 
weather  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  No,  I  don't  believe  so. 

]Mr.  Clardy.  What  aspect  of  research  did  that  tie  into  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  It  had  to  do  with  the  aurora. 

Mr.  Clardy.  I  understand  that.  I  am  trying  to  get  the  significance 
of  exploring  the  northern  lights  as  applied  practically  to  today's 
problems.  I  apprehended  the  Air  Force  might  be  interested  in  the 
weather. 

Llr.  Darling.  Well,  the  physics  of  the  upper  atmosphere  is  very 
interesting.  I  don't  know  what  particular  interest  the  Air  Force  had 
in  it. 

35663—53 5 


1798    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  didn't  know  what  the  work  was  going  to  be  used 
for,  if  anything? 

Mr.  Darling.  Right. 

Mr.  Clardy.  My  guess  may  be  as  good  as  anybody's  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  So  you  attended  this  conference,  Professor  Darling, 
under  the  sponsorship  of  the  United  States  Air  Force  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  when  you  lived  in  Detroit,  could  you  give  us 
to  the  best  of  your  memory  the  exact  residence  where  you  lived,  the 
address,  street,  and  so  forth? 

Mr.  Darling.  I  can  only  recollect  that  I  lived  at  7418  Sylvester. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Are  you  talking  about  Detroit  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes.    How  long  did  you  live  at  7418  Sylvester? 

Mr.  Darling.  I  don't  remember  that. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Was  it  a  matter  of  just  a  few  days  or  weeks,  or  what? 

Mr.  Darling.  It  was  my  last  address,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Approximately,  then,  can  you  tell  us  when  you  moved 
there,  with  reference  to  something  that  may  have  happened? 

Mr.  Darling.  No,  I  am  sorry ;  I  can't. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Was  it  more  than  a  year  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  I  wouldn't  be  able  to  state. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  can't  come  within  a  year  or  2  years  of  the  length 
of  time  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  No  ;  I  am  sorry. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Do  you  recall  any  other  addresses  in  any  other  streets 
in  Detroit  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  No,  I  don't. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Were  you  present  in  the  courtroom  when  your  wife 
testified  a  few  moments  ago  ? 

Mr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Did  you  hear  her  mention  other  streets?  I  thought 
that  might  have  refreshed  your  memory. 

Mr.  Darling.  Yes,  I  heard  her  mention  other  streets. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Do  you  recall  them,  or  not  ? 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  think  the  witness  has  said  he  doesn't  recall. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  All  right. 

Mr.  Clardy.  If  you  don't  mind,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  want  to  ask  it 
this  way.    Was  that  the  only  address  at  which  you  lived  in  Detroit? 

Mr.  Darling.  No. 

Mr.  Walter.  Why  don't  you  tell  him  where  he  lived  and  lead  him  ? 
This  is  a  regular  proceeding,  and  ask  him  if  that  is  a  fact. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Would  this  be  a  convenient  point  for  you  to  stop 
this  evening,  Mr.  Counselor  ? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Yes,  Mr.  Chairman,  if  you  so  desire,  we  can  stop  right 
now  and  commence  tomorrow. 

Mr.  Scherer.  The  committee  will  recess  until  9 :  30  tomorrow 
morning. 

(Whereupon,  at  4  p.  m.,  the  hearing  was  recessed  until  9 :  30  a.  m., 
Thursday,  June  18,  1953.) 


INVESTIGATION  OF  COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE 

COLUMBUS,  OHIO,  AKEA 


THURSDAY,   JUNE   18,   1953 

United  States  House  of  Eepresentatives, 

Subcommittee  of  the  Committee 

ON  Un-American  Activities, 

Colurribus^  Ohio. 

PUBLIC   HEARING 

The  subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities 
met,  pursuant  to  adjournment,  at  9 :  30  a.  m.,  in  hearing  room  2,  State 
Office  Building,  Columbus,  Ohio;  Hon.  Gordon  H.  Scherer,  acting 
chairman,  presiding. 

Committee  members  present :  Representatives  Gordon  H.  Scherer, 
Kit  Clardy,  and  Francis  E.  Walter. 

Staff  members  present:  Robert  L.  Kunzig,  counsel;  Donald  T. 
Appell,  investigator ;  and  Thomas  W.  Beale,  Sr.,  chief  clerk. 

Sergeant-at-arms :  Claude  Woodward. 

Present  as  invited  guest-observers:  Hon.  Samuel  Devine,  member 
of  the  Ohio  Legislature  and  chairman  of  the  Ohio  Commission  on 
Un-American  Activities;  and  Sidney  Isaacs,  counsel  for  the  Ohio 
Commission  on  Un-American  Activities. 

Mr.  Scherer.  The  committee  will  be  in  session. 

Is  counsel  ready  to  proceed  ? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Yes. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Dr.  Darling,  this  morning  the  members  of  the  com- 
mittee would  like  to  ask  you  some  questions.  Dr.  Darling,  you  testified 
before  the  House  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  at  Washing- 
ton on  March  12  and  13  of  this  year,  did  you  not  ? 

TESTIMONY  OF  BYRON  THORWELL  DARLING,  ACCOMPANIED  BY 
HIS  COUNSEL,  JOSEPH  FORER— Resumed 

Dr.  Darling.  I  believe  so. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  And  at  that  time,  of  course,  your  testimony  was  given 
under  oath  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Right  ? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Is  that  right  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Subsequent  to  your  appearance  before  the  committee 
in  Washington,  there  was  a  hearing  held  at  Ohio  State  University  in 
which  you  were  involved ;  is  that  right  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  That  is  correct. 

1799 


1800    CORIMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  ScHERER.  And  that  hearing  was  before  President  Howard  Bevis 
of  the  university  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Scherer.  xVnd  that  hearing  grew  out  of  the  testimony  you  had 
given  before  this  committee  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Scherer.  In  Washington  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Now  for  that  hearing  before  the  university  you  had 
prepared  with  the  help  of  j^oiir  counsel,  a  formal  statement,  did 
you  not? 

Dr.  Darling.  Correct. 

Mr.  Scherer,  And  that  formal  statement  consisted  of  about  14  type- 
written pages ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Something  like  that. 

Mr.  Scherer.  And  at  the  hearing  before  President  Bevis  in  April,  I 
believe  you  read  that  statement  as  part  of  your  testimony  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Scherer.  And  about  the  time  of  the  hearing,  that  statement  to 
which  I  refer  was  circulated  under  a  cover  letter  of  Professor  Harris 
of  the  university  to  various  members  of  the  faculty,  was  it  not  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  when  you  appeared  before  President  Bevis  at 
your  hearing,  you  testified,  but  not  under  oath ;  is  that  right  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Scherer.  And  the  statement  to  which  you  have  just  referred 
which  was  circulated  by  Professor  Harris  at  the  university,  that  state- 
ment was  not  signed  by  you;  is  that  correct? 

Dr.  Darling.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Scherer.  This  statement  you  had  prepared  for  presentation  at 
the  time  of  your  hearing  before  President  Bevis  was  prepared  in  an 
attempt  to  hold  your  position  on  the  faculty  of  Ohio  State  Univei'sity, 
was  it  not  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  was  defending  myself  against  charges  and  the  an- 
swer is  yes. 

Mr.  Scherer.  I  understand. 

Now,  you  did  not  see  fit,  however,  to  make  that  statement  in  affidavit 
form,  did  you  ?    Do  you  understand  my  question  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Nobody  asked  me  to,  and  I  saw  no  reason  to. 

Mr.  Scherer.  But  that  statement  was  the  explanation  of  testimony 
you  had  given  before  the  House  committee  under  oath,  was  it  not? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Scherer.  And  you  say  in  that  statement  that  it  was  prepared 
with  the  help  and  advice  of  your  counsel  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Scherer.  And  you  say  it  was  never  suggested  or  the  thought 
never  came  to  you  that  it  should  be  put  in  affidavit  form ;  is  that  right? 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  this  was  an  administrative  hearing. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Well,  now,  on  page  8  of  that  statement  you  say  this : 

I  am  not  and  never  have  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  or  any 
organization  which,  to  my  knowledge  or  belief  was  affiliated  or  connected  with  the 
Communist  Party. 

Now,  Dr.  Darling,  when  you  made  that  statement  to  the  officials 
of  Ohio  State  University,  will  you  tell  us  whether  or  not  that  was  a 
true  or  false  statement? 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA    ISOl 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  following 
reasons:  First,  I  agree  with  one  of  my  fellow  physicists,  one  of  the 
greatest  living  physicists,  Prof.  Albert  Einstein,  that  one  should  re- 
fuse to  answer  questions  before  these  political  inquisitions  and  second, 
on  the  privilege  of  the  fifth  amendment  that  one  may  not  be  made  to 
testify  against  himself. 

Mr.  ScHEREE.  Well,  you  are  then  refusing  to  tell  the  committee  for 
the  reasons  you  have  stated  whether  or  not  you  told  President  Bevis 
the  truth  or  not ;  is  that  right  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  am  refusing  to  answer  the  question  for  the  stated 
reasons. 

Mr.  Clardy.  I  didn't  hear  your  answer.   Will  you  repeat  it  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  am  refusing  to  answer  for  the  stated  reasons. 

Mr.  Clardy.  The  same  reasons  just  given  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Dr.  Darling,  when  you  testified  before  this  commit- 
tee on  March  12  and  13  of  this  year,  I  am  going  to  ask  you  whether  or 
not  this  question  was  not  asked  you  by  Mr.  Eussell  of  the  staff :  "Mr. 
Darling,  are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party?''  and  if  you 
did  not  answer,  "I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons," 
namely,  the  reason  you  had  stated  previously,  that  you  refused  to  an- 
swer a  pi-evioiis  question  on  the  ground  that  it  might  tend  to  incrimi- 
nate you. 

I  am  going  to  ask  you  whether  that  question  which  I  just  read  to 
you  and  the  answer  which  I  just  read  was  asked  by  Mr.  Kussell  and 
that  answer  given  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  I  don't  know  who  asked  the  question. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Irrespective  of  who  asked  the  question,  was  not  that 
question  asked  you  and  that  answer  given  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  there  was  some — yes. 

Mr.  Sciierer.  In  view  of  the  statement  which  you  made  within 
a  few  days  after  that  hearing  to  the  president  of  Ohio  State  Uni- 
versity that  you  were  not  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  I  am 
now  going  to  repeat  tliat  same  question  and  ask  you.  Dr.  Darling,  are 
you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  am  going  to  ask  you  if  at  the  hearing  in  Washington 
to  which  we  have  referred,  whether  or  not  you  were  asked  this 
question:  "Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party?", 
and  if  you  did  not  answer,  "I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the 


same  reasons." 


Dr.  Darling.  I  believe  that  was  asked. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  In  view  of  your  statement  to  which  I  have  referred. 
I  am  going  to  ask  j^ou  that  same  question  now  under  oath  :  Have  you 
ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  reasons  that 
I  gave  here  today. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Then,  Mr.  Kearney  of  the  committee  asked  you  if  you 
were  not  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  would  you  so  state,  and 
your  answer  at  that  time:  "I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the 


same  reasons." 


Was  that  question  asked  you  and  that  answer  given  by  you  at  that 
hearing  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  believe  so. 


1802     COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Now,  Dr.  Darling,  I  am  going  to  put  that  question 
again  to  you  here  in  view  of  your  statement.  If  you  were  not  a  mem- 
ber of  the  Communist  Party,  would  you  so  state  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  am  going  to  ask  you  if  this  question  wasn't  asked 
you :  "Were  you  ever  a  member  of  the  Mid-Town  Club  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  in  Detroit?"  And  your  answer  before  the  committee 
was,  "I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons." 

Dr.  Darling.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Sciierer.  Now,  again,  in  view  of  your  statement,  I  ask :  Were 
you  ever  a  member  of  the  Mid-Town  Club  of  the  Communist  Party 
in  Detroit? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Scherer.  I  am  going  to  ask  you  whether  or  not  this  question 
wasn't  asked  you :  "Were  you  ever  a  member  of  the  First  Congres- 
sional District  branch  of  the  Communist  Party  in  Detroit,  Mich.?" 
And  your  answer  at  that  time  was,  "I  refuse  to  answer  that  question 
for  the  same  reasons." 

Dr.  Darling.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Scherer.  And  I  am  going  to  ask  you  now,  in  view  of  your  state- 
ment to  President  Bevis :  Were  you  ever  a  member  of  the  First  Con- 
gressional District  branch  of  the  Communist  Party  in  Detroit,  Mich.  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Scherer.  In  order  to  save  time,  I  will  state  for  the  record  that 
the  questions  I  am  about  to  ask  Dr.  Darling  were  asked  him  at  the  hear- 
ings in  Washington  and  the  answers  were  given  by  him. 

I  am  going  to  ask  you  now.  Dr.  Darling,  while  you  were  at  Yale 
University,  were  you  ever  a  member  of  any  branch  of  the  Communist 
Party? 

Dr.  Darling.  T  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  While  you  were  employed  at  Michigan  State,  did  you 
engage  in  the  distribution  of  Communist  Party  literature? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Have  you  ever  acted  as  an  agent  for  the  Communist 
Party? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Have  you  ever  transferred  any  information  that  was 
in  your  possession  to  officials  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Scherer.  If  you  never  transferred  any  such  information,  would 
you  so  state  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Are  you  engaged  in  Communist  Party  activities  at 
the  present  time? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Have  you  ever  received  from  the  Communist  Party 
any  directives  to  do  or  to  refrain  from  doing  any  specific  thing? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Scherer.  So  that  the  record  may  be  clear,  let  it  indicate  at 
this  point  again  that  I  am  reading  the  same  questions  that  were  asked 
Dr.  Darling  at  the  hearing  in  Washington. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Have  you  ever  received  any  funds  from  the  Commu- 
nist Party  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1803 

Mr.  ScHERER,  Are  you  a  member  of  any  Communist  organization  at 
Ohio  State  University  at  the  present  time?  Of  course,  you  couldn't 
be  at  the  present  time,  but  that  question  was  asked  you.  Were  you 
prior  to  your  dismissal  from  Ohio  State  University  a  member  of  any 
Communist  Party  organization  at  Ohio  State  University? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Do  you  know  whether  there  is  such  an  organization 
at  Ohio  State  University  at  the  present  time  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Is  there  a  cell  of  Communist  Party  members  composed 
of  professors  and  instructors  at  Ohio  State  University  at  this  time? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Let  the  record  show  that  I  am  reading  from  the  official 
transcript  of  the  hearing  held  in  Washington  on  INIarch  12th  and  13th. 

Have  you  ever  received  any  compensation  or  anything  of  value  from 
the  Communist  Party  at  any  time  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  No. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Did  you  ever  make  any  contributions  to  the  Com- 
munist Party  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  Walter.  In  other  words,  you  will  answer  the  question  that  you 
never  received  anything,  but  the  question  as  to  whether  or  not  you  gave 
anything,  you  will  not  answer  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Have  you  written  any  books  or  pamphlets  which  have 
been  published  by  any  group  or  organization? 

Dr.  Darling.  By  any  group  or  organization  ? 

Mr.  Scherer.  Yes. 

Dr.  Darling.  Would  you  refer  to  papers  published  in  professional 
societies  ? 

Mr.  Scherer.  Yes. 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes,  I  have  written  a  number  of  papers  and  some  of 
them — well,  let's  take  the  paper  on  the  theory  of  water  molecule,  is 
one  of  the  fundamental  papers  in  the  field,  and  I  am  very  proud  of 
that  paper. 

I  have  also  been  engaged  in  working  on  the  theory  of  elementary 
particles  in  fundamental  length.  I  published  a  paper  on  that  in  1950, 
and  I  have  been  interrupted  in  that  work  by  the  hearings  of  this 
committee. 

I  had  a  series  of  papers  on  the  subject  ready  to  prepare  for  publica- 
tion. I  had  the  first  one  practically  finished  and  I  have  not  been  able 
to  return  to  it,  and  this  work  is  very  fundamental  in  the  fact  that  it 
has  to  do  with  the  existence  of  the  elementary  particles,  the  values  of 
their  masses  which  some  of  these  particles  are  well  known  for  a  long 
time,  and  others  have  been  discovered  in  the  cosmic  rays.  I  predicted 
the  existence  of  many  of  these  particles  and  the  experimental  work  in 
cosmic  rays  seems  to  indicate  that  there  are  these  particles. 

Mr.  Scherer.  It  was  in  that  field,  was  it,  that  you  were  doing 
research  for  the  United  States  Air  Force  at  Ohio  State? 

Dr.  Darling.  No,  that  was  not.  I  was  working  on  the  theory  of  the 
ozone  molecule,  and  that  is  a  later  type  of  work  in  the  same  type  of 
field  that  I  did  the  work  on  the  water  vapor  molecule,  the  ozone 
molecule.    It  is  a  very  nice  molecule  that  had  some  new  things  in  it, 


1804    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA 

some  new  things  for  the  theoretical  development  and  understandings 
This  work  has  also  been  interrupted. 

The  Air  Force  was  very  much  interested  in  this,  and  I  think  that 
that  is  one  of  the  type  of  things  that  this  committee  in  its  actions  does 
not  take  into  accoimt,  that  although  this  was  classified  work,  was  very 
important  work  and  a  fundamental  theory,  and  if  this  type  of  work 
doesn't  go  on,  it  is  going  to  lead  to  a  restriction  of  the  growth  of  science 
in  this  country. 

Mr.  SciiERER.  "We  realize  that  you  are  a  very  capable  physicist  and 
evidently,  because  you  were  a  capable  physicist,  you  were  doing  work 
for  the  United  States  Air  Force,  but  my  question  is  now,  Have  you 
ever  published  any  writings  for  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  SciiERER.  Have  you  ever  used — have  you  ever  published  any 
writings  under  any  other  name  tlian  Darling  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons.- 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  have  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Let  me  finisli.  I  am  sorry.  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  you 
have  written  articles  for  the  Communist  Party  under  another  name? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  SciiERER.  As  well  as  under  your  own  name  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  SciiERER.  Now,  has  anyone  ever  shoAvn  you  any  information 
pertaining  to  classified  contracts  of  the  armed  services. 

Dr.  Darling.  Information  pertaining  to  classified  contracts'? 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Yes ;  I  might  in  fairness  say,  in  Washington  that  same 
question  was  asked  you,  and  you  refused  to  answer. 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  I  would  like  to  state  to  this  committee  and  tO' 
the  audience  and  the  television  audie.nce  that  to  the  best  of  my  knowl- 
edge, I  have  never  been  in  possession  in  any  form  of  any  secret  or  classi- 
fied material,  and  I  would  like  to  further  state  that  there  are  no  secrets 
of  that  nature.    There  is  nothing  in  the  world 

Mr.  SciiERER.  There  are  secrets  of  the  Federal  Government,  aren't 
there,  classified  secrets  at  the  present  time  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes,  but  there  are  no  secrets  of  that  nature.  Nothing 
that  cannot  be — with  ingenuity,  inventiveness,  discovered. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Then  you  don't  tliink  any  of  the  secrets  of  the  atom 
bomb  were  stolen  and  given  to  Hussia  ?  They  would  have  discovered 
that  themselves  without  any  help  from  their  spies,  is  that  what  you 
mean  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  didn't  mean  that  at  all. 

Mr.  Clardy.  It  sounded  like  it. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Dr.  Darling,  I  am  going  to  pass  to  another  pliase  of 
this  investigation,  one  that  wasn't  touched  upon  in  Washington.  Do- 
you  know  Kobert  H.  Bush  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Kobert  H.  Bush? 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Yes. 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  recall. 

Mr.  Sc MERER.  W^ell,  maybe  we  can  refresh  your  recollection.  Isn't 
Robert  H.  Busli  now  a  rather  well-known  professor  of  psychology  at 
Harvard  University  ?    Does  that  refresh  your  recol  lection  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  know. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES   IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA    1805 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Maybe  we  can  go  a  little  further.  Isn't  it  a  fact  that 
jou  knew  Robert  H.  Bnsh  very  well  at  Michigan  State  University 
when  you  were  at  Michigan  State  College  when  you  were  teaching 
there  in  1939  and  1940,  and  he  was  a  graduate  student? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes ;  I  knew  him. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Well,  let's  see  what  Dr.  Bush  says  about  it.  Dr.  Bush, 
let  the  record  show,  testified  before  this  committee  less  than  a  month 
ago,  on  May  25, 1953,  and  Dr.  Bush  was  under  oath,  and  Mr.  Tavenner 
asked  him  these  questions : 

What  is  your  name? 

Answer.  Robert  H.  Bush. 

Question.  And  what  is  your  profession? 

Answer.  I  am  an  assistant  professor  at  Harvard  University. 

Question.  In  wliat  field  are  you  working? 

Answer.  I  am  in  the  social  relations  department  and  I  teach  psychology. 

Then  Mr.  Appell  of  the  staff  asked  this  question : 

Pi-ofessor  Bush,  during  the  days  you  were  a  student  at  Michigan  State,  did  you 
know  Byron  Thorwell  Darling? 
Answer.  Yes,  I  did  know  him. 

Now,  isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  became  acquainted  with  Dr.  Bush  while 
both  of  you  were  members  of  a  Communist  group  at  Michigan  State, 
which  group  was  composed  largely  of  students  and  a  few  professors? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Now,  let's  see  what  Professor  Bush  says  about  that  in 
his  testimony. 

Mr.  Appell  asked : 

How  did  you  first  become  acquainted  Avith  Byron  Darling? 

Answer.  I  am  afraid  I  don't  recall  the  precise  circumstances  but  it  was  through 
:a  group  of  undergraduates  who  I  knew  at  the  time  had  formed  a  sort  of  political 
discussion  group.    It  was  through  this  group  that  I  met  Mr.  Dai-ling. 

Question.  This  political  discussion  group  with  which  you  became  affiliated, 
was  it  a  group  that  discussed  all  political  phases,  or  did  it  specialize? 

Answer,  It  was  quite  specialized.  It  was  concerned  with  leftists'  political 
discussions.  My  recollection  is  very  poor,  but  I  think  it  was  more  toward  the 
Communist  Party.  We  discussed  literature  put  out  by  the  Communist  Party, 
identified  as  Communist  Party  literature.  Some  of  the  stuff  we  discussed  was, 
I  don't  recall  anything  having  been  published  by  the  Socialist  Party  that  we  read. 

Question.  Did  the  group  also  discuss  literature  circulated  by  the  Young  Com- 
munist League? 

Answer.  Yes,  I  believe  I  remembered  seeing  the  name  Young  Communist  League 
on  something  printed. 

Mr.  Appell  then  asked  Mr.  Bush : 

When  did  Byron  T.  Darling  become  known  to  you  and  how  did  he  become 
known  to  yon'i 

Answer.  I  can't  recall,  but  I  distinctly  remember  his  having  attended  some 
•of  the  meetings  later  on. 

Is  that  testimony  of  Dr.  Bush  true? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  PcHEEKR.  Now,  isn't  it  a  fact,  Dr.  Darling,  that  you  were  the 
person  who  led  the  discussions  of  this  Communist  group  at  Michigan 
State,  and  isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  were  the  dominant  party  at  these 
meetings? 

Dr.  Dari.ing.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Now,  Mr.  Appell  asked  Professor  Bush : 

When  Professor  Darling  attended  the  meetings  of  this  group,  did  he  attend  as 
■another  member  or  was  his  connection  more  formal  than  that? 


1806     COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA 

Answer.  I  don't  recall  that  Darling  was  in  any  particular  capacity,  except  that 
since  he  was  one  of  the  faculty  members  that  attended  these  meetings,  he  seemed 
to  frequently  take  a  leading  role  in  the  discussions.  He  seemed  to  be  the  au- 
thority on  a  number  of  points  that  were  being  discussed.  It  is  only  in  this  way 
that  I  recall  he  was  in  a  special  role.  My  recollection  is  that  when  he  attended 
the  meetings,  he  was  the  dominant  person  in  the  discussion. 

Then  the  next  question  by  Mr.  Appell : 

When  Darling  was  not  leading  the  discussion,  who  would  assume  the  leader- 
ship role  in  the  discussion? 

Answer.  Well,  my  recollection  is  that  it  was  Charles  Gainor  who  was  the 
next  most  dominant  person  in  the  group  as  far  as  discussions  were  concerned. 

Now,  would  you  care  to  comment  on  that  testimony  of  Dr.  Bush, 
which  I  just  read,  as  to  whether  it  is  true  or  false? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Now,  did  you  know  Gainor  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Dr. — his  name  is  Charles  Gainor;  isn't  that  right? 

Dr.  Darling.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  And  Dr.  Gainor  now  is  teaching  at  Pittsburgh  Uni- 
versity, did  you  know  that  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  No,  I  didn't  know  that. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Well,  Dr.  Gainor  was  at  your  home  on  New  Year's 
Day  as  late  as  January  1,  1948,  wasn't  he,  stayed  at  your  home  over- 
night? You  stayed  at  Gainor's  home;  I  am  sorry.  You  stayed  at 
Gainor's  home  in  Michigan,  do  you  recall  that  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  I  wouldn't  be  certain  about  the  date,  but  that 
may  be. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Now,  you  knew  Dr.  Gainor  as  a  member  of  the  Young 
Communist  League  when  he  was  at  Michigan  State  while  you  were 
there  and  he  was  a  member  of  this  group  and  was  second  in  command 
with  you,  did  you  not? 

Dr.  Darling.  1  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Well  of  course,  Dr.  Gainor  was  a  little  more  frank 
with  the  committee.  Dr.  Darling. 

Dr.  Gainor  just  appeared  before  the  committee  and  under  oath 
testified  on  May  27 : 

Question.  Mr.  Gainor,  will  you  state  your  full  name  and  present  address? 
Answer.  Charles  Gainor,  4111  Aliquippa  treet,  Pittsburgh,  Pa. — 

He  then  tells  of  his  educational  background,  he  has  a  Ph.  D.  in 
philosophy,  which  he  received  from  Michigan  State. 

Question.  What  is  your  status  on  the  faculty  of  the  University  at  Pittsburgh 
at  the  present  time? 
Answer.  Associate  professor.  Department  of  Biological  Sciences. 

Didn't  you  know  that  he  was  at  Pittsburgh?     Your  families  ex- 
change Christmas  cards,  do  they  not? 
Dr.  Darling,  I  don't  recall. 
Mr.  ScHERER.  You  don't  recall  ? 
Dr.  Darling.  No. 
Mr.  ScHERER.  Well,  he  tells  about  that : 

Question.  Professor  Gainor,  J  hand  you  a  photograph  and  ask  you  if  you  can 
identify  that,  the  individuals  shown  there? 
Answer.  Yes,  that  is  Dr.  Darling. 
Question.  Do  you  know  Dr.  Darling? 
Answer.  Yes,  I  know  him. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1807 

Let's  see  where  he  admits  that  he  is  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party. 

Mr.  Appell  asked  him : 

Professor  Gainer,  you  were  interviewed  by  me  on  May  18  of  this  year,  and 
during  the  course  of  the  interview  you  voluntarily  admitted  for  a  period  of  time 
you  held  membership  in  the  Young  Communist  League  and  the  answer  was  yes? 

Now,  I  don't  recall  what  your  answer  was  to  my  question  as  to 
whether  you  remember  Dr.  Gainor  staying  at  your  home  as  late  as — 
Mr.  Clardy  corrects  me,  you  did  recall  that  he  stayed  at  your  home, 
but  didn't  recollect  the  date  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  No,  the  other  way  around. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  am  sorry ;  I  am  still  confused.  You  stayed  at  Dr. 
Gainor's  home  in  Michigan ;  is  that  right  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Now,  getting  back  to  Michigan  State,  Dr.  Darling, 
isn't  it  true  that  this  Communist  group  first  met  on  Michigan  State 
campus  and  then  moved  over  to  a  private  residence  on  the  west  side  of 
Lansing  that  was  a  considerable  distance  from  the  campus  to  the 
home  of  Frank  and  Goldie  Kieger,  of  401  Beaver  Street,  Lansing, 
Mich.,  and  isn't  it  at  that  home  that  you  presided  over  these  meetings? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Now,  let's  see  what  Dr.  Bush  has  to  say  about  those 
meetings.  On  page  14  of  the  transcript  of  Dr.  Bush's  testimony.  May 
27,  we  find  Mr.  Appell  asking  him  this  question  : 

Then,  when  the  meetings  were  moved  from  East  Lansing,  where  were  they 
moved  to,  according  to  your  recollection? 

Answer.  My  recollection  is  that  they  were  at  some  rather  remote  section  of 
Lansing,  not  East  Lansing,  at  the  home  of  a  man  and  wife  whose  name  I  am  not 
sure  I  ever  knew.  They  were  seldom  at  home  when  we  met  there.  I  don't  recall 
their  names.    I  don't  recall  the  street. 

Now,  does  that  refresh  your  recollection  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Would  you  say  that  Dr.  Bush's  testimony  is  true  or 
false? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 
_  Mr.  ScHERER,  Well,  now.  Dr.  Darling,  isn't  it  a  fact  that  the  activi- 
ties of  this  group  at  Michigan  State  were  clouded  in  secrecy  and  isn't 
it  a  fact  that  they  were  clouded  in  secrecy  because  you  were  connected 
with  the  group,  and  you.  were  a  member  of  the  faculty  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Now,  let's  look  at  Dr.  Bush's  testimony  with  refer- 
ence to  that : 

I  frequently  had  experience,  when  I  was  in  the  group,  as  I  recall,  of  not  know- 
ing everything  that  was  going  on,  so  to  speak.  Many  things  were  sort  of  clouded 
in  secrecy. 

Then  Mi-.  Appell  asked  him,  and  it  will  be  noted  that  that  was  a 
voluntary  remark  on  the  part  of  Bush  that  they  were  clouded  in 
secrecy.     Mr.  Appell  properly  followed  with  this  question : 

Can  you  recall  some  of  the  things  that  were  clouded  in  secrecy? 

and  Mr.  Bush  replied — 

I  recall  having  been  warned  from  time  to  time  to  not  too  openly  discuss  the  ac- 
tivities of  this  group,  especially  Darling's  connection  with  the  group.  I  assumed 
that  was  because  he  was  a  faculty  member  and  his  association  with  the  group 
might  not  be  viewed  with  much  favor  from  the  college  administration. 


1808    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA 

Now,  would  ^ou  say  Dr.  Bush's  testimony  in  that  respect  is  true 
or  false? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Now,  let's  see,  Dr.  Darling.  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  this 
group  at  Michigan  State  engaged  in  two  types  of  activities  and  that 
you  participated  in  the  first  type  of  these  activities  and  couldn't  par- 
ticipate in  the  second  type  of  activities  that  I  am  going  to  outline  to 
you,  because  you  were  a  member  of  the  faculty;  that  you  and  Dr. 
Gainor  had  the  students  participate  in  the  second  classification  to 
wliich  I  am  going  to  refer  was  not  the  first  activity  reading  and 
discussing  Communist  literature  and  the  history  of  the  Communist 
Party  of  Soviet  Russia.  Isn't  that  the  first  activity  in  which  thiy 
group  was  engaged  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Now,  let's  see  again  what  Professor  Bush  has  to  say 
about  that. 

Question.  Now,  you  can  recall  that  some  material  discussed  by  this  group  was 
material  issued  by  the  Young  Communist  League? 

Answer.  I  think  so.  Yes  ;  materials  published  by  the  Young  Communist  League, 
if  they  publish  material,  at  least  it  bore  their  name. 

Question.  You  also  can  recall  this  group  discussed  literature  prepared  by  the 
Communist  Party? 

Answer.  Yes;  I  recall  the  official  history  of  the  Communist  Party  of  the 
U.  S.  S.  R.  I  believe  it  was  published  by  the  Communist  Party.  It  had  a  red 
cover. 

Question.  That  would  be  the  constitution  of  the  Communist  Party  of  the  Soviet 
Union? 

Answer.  I  don't  recall  whether  it  contained  the  constitution.  I  think  they 
called  it  a  history. 

Would  you  say  that  testimony  is  true  or  untrue,  Dr.  Darling  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  "I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Now,  the  second  type  of  activity  in  which  this  group 
engaged  was  just  a  little  more  spectacular,  was  it  not.  Dr.  Darling? 
Isn't  it  a  fact  that  after  these  meetings  in  which  you  were  the  dominant 
person  that  the  group  would  go  out  at  midnight  through  Lansing  and 
East  Lansing  and  put  Communist  literature  on  the  doorsteps ;  wasn't 
that  one  of  the  activities? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Don't  you  remember  in  connection  with  the  peace 
drive  that  this  group  did  the  rather  foolish  thing  of  making  white 
crosses  and  placing  them  along  the  road  in  accordance  with  the  party 
line  at  that  time? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  SciiERER.  Well,  now,  do  you  recall  when  this  group  went  down 
to  Washington  and  staged  a  sitdown  strike  on  the  front  steps  of 
the  Capitol  ?     I  am  not  saying  you  "went,  but  do  you  remember  that? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Walter.  Now,  may  I  interrupt,  Mr.  Chairman,  at  this  point? 
What  criminal  prosecution  do  you  think  you  could  be  confronted  with 
because  you  ha])pen  to  know^  that  some  foolish  students  came  to  Wash- 
ington and  sat  on  the  steps  of  the  Capitol  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Walter.  Do  you  think,  under  the  Constitution,  you  have  a  right 
to  refuse  to  answer  the  question  I  have  asked  you  because,  to  answer  it, 
would  be  in  effect,  testifying  against  yourself  in  a  criminal  proceeding? 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1809 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  some — the  fifth  amendment  is  sometimes  inter- 
preted that  way. 

Mr.    Walter.  Yon    had    better    stick    to    your    physics,    Doctor. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr.  ScHERER.  We  can't  have  any  demonstrations.  This  is  a  serious 
matter,  ladies  and  gentlemen.     We  want  no  demonstrations  pro  or  con. 

In  connection  with  that  last  question  that  I  asked  you,  Dr.  Darling, 
and  this  is  my  last,  with  reference  to  the  second  type  of  activity  in 
which  this  group  was  engaged,  I  want  to  read  to  you  what  Dr.  Bush 
had  to  say  about  it. 

Question.  "Was  your  group  interested  in  the  "Yanks  are  not  coming"  campaign, 
which  was,  of  course,  a  part  of  the  Couimunist  Party  line  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Bush.  As  I  recall  it,  yes.  I  believe  this  trip  to  Washington  I  mentioned 
earlier  had  something  to  do  with  the  peace  and  sitdown  strikes  in  front  of  the 
Capitol.  I  recall  one  other  incident  which  involved  building  and  installing 
some  white  crosses  in  the  boulevard  in  East  Lansing.  I  believe  it  was  Memorial 
Day  and  the  point  of  the  white  crosses  was  connected  with  this  peace  drive. 

Question.  Was  it  your  group  that  made  the  crosses  or  had  the  crosses  made? 

Professor  Bush's  answer.  Yes. 

Now,  Dr.  Darling,  do  you  remember  the  time  that  part  of  this  group 
was  arrested  by  the  police  in  Lansing,  Mich.,  after  they  engaged  in  an 
"anti"'  demonstration  against  Gerald  Smith,  do  you  recall  that? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Wasn't  that  demonstration  right  after  a  meeting  of 
your  group « 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Now,  let's  read  Dr.  Bush's  testimony  with  respect  to 
this  activity : 

Question.  Did  this  group  participate  in  the  distribution  of  literature  in  Lansing 
or  on  the  campus? 

Answer.  I  recall  one  instance  when  I  stayed  out  one  night  distributing  leaflets 
of  some  .sort  about  which  I  don't  remember,  but  in  the  town  of  Lansing.  It  may 
have  had  something  to  do  with  the  strike  at  the  time.  It  may  have  had  some- 
thing to  do  with  this  peace  drive.  I  don't  recall,  but  I  do  remember  the  r.ither 
adventurous  entertainment  of  distributing  leaflets  in  the  middle  of  the  uig'it  on 
people's  doorsteps.  We  may  have  distributed  some  literature  on  the  campus, 
but  I  don't  recall  the  incident. 

Now,  Dr.  Darling,  you  being  a  professor  at  Michigan  State,  you  did 
not  actually  participate  in  these  Communist  activities,  did  you  ? 
Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 
Mr.  Scherer.  Isn't  it  a  fact,  Doctor,  that  you  led  the  discussion  and 
planned  these  activities  for  the  organization  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason- 
Mr.  Scherer,  Now,  let's  again  and  for  the  last  time,  see  what  Pro- 
fessor Bush  says  about  it.    Remember,  he  is  in  the  psychology  depart- 
ment at  Harvard  ? 

Mr.  Appell,  after  he  [Professor  Bush]  had  testified  about  these 
various  activities,  namely,  the  sitdown  event  on  the  steps  of  the  Capi- 
tol and  distribution  of  literature  and  white  crosses,  and  so  forth, 
asked  this : 

Can  you  recall  Darling  participating  in  that? 

Answer.  I  don't  recall  whether  he  did  or  not.  My  impression  was  that  he  was 
never  active  in  the  dirty  work,  he  was  only  involved  in  the  discussion  and 
leadership. 

Would  you  say  that  that  testimony  of  Dr.  Bush  was  true  or  false? 
Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason- 


1810    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Mr.  Clardy,  do  you  have  some  questions  ? 

Mr.  Clardy.  Yes,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Chairman,  before  I  undertake  asking  some  questions  I  think 
that  the  committee  ought  to  make  it  perfectly  plain  on  the  record  that 
the  two  gentlemen  from  whose  testimony  you  have  read,  namely,  Pro- 
fessors Bush  and  Gainor,  should  have  some  explanation  of  the  part 
they  have  played  clearly  set  out. 

In  other  words,  they  have  cooperated  with  the  committee.  They 
have  been  most  helpful  to  the  committee  and  to  the  Congress.  Their 
testimony  indicates  quite  clearly,  that  they  have  been,  I  think,  fully 
conscious,  since  the  days  they  were  at  the  college  in  my  hometown,  of 
their  duties  and  responsibilities  as  citizens,  and  this  committee  has 
expressed  to  them,  and  we  should  express  it  again  here  today,  an 
earnest  desire  to  help  them  in  any  way  that  we  can  to  make  sure  there 
are  no  reprisals  visited  upon  them. 

We  understand  that  the  colleges  are  willing  to  go  along  with  us  on 
that,  and  they  have  had  nothing  to  do  with  our  producing  this  testi- 
mony here  today. 

I  thought  we  ought  to  say  that  in  justice  to  them.  Do  you  have 
anything  to  add  to  that,  Mr.  Kunzig  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No. 

Mr.  Clardt.  Of  course,  the  testimony  demonstrates — you  didn't 
get  to  that— that  they  severed  all  their  connections  with  the  party 
quite  some  time  ago. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  think  that  statement  was  necessary  to  be  made  by 
you,  Mr.  Clardy.     Thank  you  for  it. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Now,  Mr.  Witness,  while  you  were  at  East  Lansing, 
on  the  faculty  of  Michigan  State  College  which,  as  you  probably  re- 
call, I  advised  you  is  about  half  a  mile  from  my  residence  there  in 
East  Lansing,  while  you  were  there,  did  you  know  a  man  by  the  name 
of  Edward  Robert  Gewirts?  My  pronounciation  may  be  inaccurate, 
but  the  spelling  is  correct.     Did  you  know  such  a  man  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  recollect  him. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  have  no  recollection  whatever? 

Dr.  Darling.  No. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Do  you  remember  that  while  you  were  on  the  faculty, 
this  gentleman,  and  I  hear  counsel  suggesting  it  is  pronounced 
"Gewirts,"  but  the  spelling  will  govern  it — -he  was  a  student  who  cor- 
rected math  papers  for  you ;  does  that  refresh  your  recollection  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  remember  any  student  that  corrected  mathe- 
matics papers  for  me. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Well,  do  you  recollect  whether  the  man  I  have  named 
corrected  the  math  papers  for  you,  whether  you  recall  him  as  a  stu- 
dent or  not? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  recall  anyone  correcting  mathematics  papers 
for  me. 

Mr.  Clardy.  I  will  again  ask  the  question :  Do  you  have  any  recol- 
lection, now  that  I  have  attempted  to  refresh  your  memory,  any  recol- 
lection whatever  of  the  gentleman  whose  name  I  have  read  to  you? 
I  will  help  you  a  little  more.  This  man  was  a  member  of  the  Com- 
munist cell  to  which  you  belonged,  also. 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Now,  let  me  tell  you  what  the  gentleman  had  to  say 
about  this  same  thing,  on  page  4  of  an  executive  session  hearing  held 


COIMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,  AREA    1811 

before  me  at  Lansing  on  Monday,  ^une  8,  this  year,  Mr.  Appell,  who 
sits  on  my  right,  asked:  "You  knew  Byron  Thorwell  Darling?",  and 
Dr.  Gewirts  answered,  "Yes." 

Then  the  further  question,  "Was  it  in  a  period  of  time  after  Dr. 
Darling  became  affiliated  with  Michigan  State  College,"  and  the  an- 
swer was,  "Yes." 

Does  that  refresh  your  recollection  ? 

Mr.  FoRER.  The  question  is.  Does  that  refresh  his  recollection  of 
what  ? 

Mr.  Clardy.  Whether  he  knew  the  gentleman  or  not. 

Mr.  FoRER.  Whether  he  knew  Gewirts  ? 

Mr.  Clardy.  Yes. 

Dr.  Darling.  I  recall  now  that  I  knew  a  student  by  the  name  of 
Gewirts. 

Mr.  Clardy.  I  thought  you  would. 

Now,  that  gentleman  has  testified,  and  I  have  the  evidence  before 
me  here,  that  there  was  a  Communist  cell  or  a  cell  of  Young  Com- 
munist League  or  both,  on  the  campus  at  Michigan  State  College  at 
that  time,  and  I  asked  him  this  question,  "There  was  such  a  group 
and  you  and  some  of  the  same  members  that  belonged  to  the  on-campus 
group  also  belonged  to  the  group  that  met  off  the  campus?"  And  the 
explanation,  that  is  the  group  that  was  involved  in  the  questions  asked 
bv  the  Chairman  a  few  moments  ago,  and  the  doctor's  answer  was, 
"Yes." 

Now,  is  the  testimony  that  this  did  exist  both  as  an  oncampus  and 
an  off  campus  group  of  which  you  were  a  member,  is  that  testimony 
true  or  do  you  now  state  that  it  is  not  true  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Doctor,  this  testimony  was  taken  under  oath  by  a  man 
who  cooperated  with  this  committee.  It  is  a  matter  now  of  record. 
Don't  3^ou  think,  sir,  that  you  had  better  reconsider  that  answer  and 
tell  us  now,  since  you  have  chosen  when  you  were  not  under  oath, 
to  deny  these  things,  to  tell  us  what  the  real  facts  are  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Well,  which  answer  do  you  want  the  public  and  this 
committee  to  accept,  this  answer  you  are  now  giving,  or  that  which 
you  gave  to  the  president  of  the  great  university  located  here,  that 
you  were  not  a  member  of  the  party  or  any  group  connected  with 
it  ?    Which  of  those  two  answers  shall  we  believe  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  believe  you  are  assuming  that  I  gave  two  answers. 
1  didn't  give  this  committee  any  answer. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Now,  passing  that  for  the  moment,  we  will  get  back 
to  it  a  little  later.  Do  you  recall  two  houses  in  Lansing  where  the 
group  we  have  been  discussing  held  meetings?  Do  you  recall  that 
there  were  two  houses  where  the  group  met  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  Clardy.  And  to  assist  you  in  your  recollection,  so  that  you  may 
answer  the  further  questions  I  am  about  to  ask,  I  will  ask  if  you  know 
or  knew  a  man  by  the  name  of  Arthur  Wright  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes.    I  recall  a  man  by  that  name. 

Mr.  Clardy.  And  where  did  you  know  him  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I — I  knew  him  in  East  Lansing. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Was  he  a  student  at  the  college  where  you  were  teach- 
ing? 


1812    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  How  long  did  you  know  him  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  remember. 

Mr.  Clardy.  When  did  you  first  get  acquainted  with  him? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  recall  that. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Was  it  at  about  the  time  you  came  to  the  college  at 
East  Lansing? 

Dr.  Darling.  It  could  be. 

Mr.  Clardy.  I  am  not  asking  for  "could-be's" ;  is  that  the  fact  or 
not? 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  I  say  yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Did  you  know  his  wife,  Lois? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Did  you  get  acquainted  with  her  about  the  same  time- 
that  you  became  acquainted  with  Mr.  Wright? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  recall — I  don't  recall. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Do  you  know  where  they  lived  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  can't  recall. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Does  the  address,  219  Hill  Street,  Lansing,  refresh 
your  recollection? 

Dr.  Darling.  No,  it  doesn't. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Isn't  it  a  fact,  Doctor,  that  you  attended  Communist 
or  Young  Communist  League  cell  meetings  at  that  address  with  Mr. 
and  Mrs.  Wright? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Doctor,  Dr.  Gewirts  has  testified  concerning  these- 
meetings  that  you  attended  to  this  length,  when  we  inquired  where 
the  meetings  were  held,  "They  were  held  at  a  house  down  in  Lansing,. 
Mich.,  where  Arthur  Wright  lived.  There  was  a  girl  by  the  name 
of  Lois  Taft  who  lived  there  also." 

Now,  did  you  know  Lois  Taft  before  she  became  Mrs.  Wright? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes,  I  believe  so. 

Mr.  Clardy.  What  is  that? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  believe  so. 

Mr.  Clardy.  How  long  were  you  in  East  Lansing,  connected  with 
the  college,  all  together? 

Dr.  Darling.  A  little  over  a  year. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  knew  these  people  during  that  entire  time,  didn't 
you? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  And  do  you  want  this  committee 

Dr.  Darling.  I  wouldn't  say  the  entire  time. 

Mr.  Clardy.  There  may  be  a  feAv  days  left  out,  but  substantially  it 
was  the  entire  period  we  have  just  discussed,  wasn't  it  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  about  that. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Do  you  want  to  leave  the  impression  with  this  conunit- 
tee  that  you  never  attended  a  Young  Communist  League  meeting  at 
219  Hill'Street,  Lansing? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Did  you  know  a  women  by  the  name  of  Goldie  Gregu- 

rek?    Do  you  know  this  woman,  whom  I  shall  call  "Goldie"  for  short? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  (luestiou  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Did  you  know  her  husband,  Frank? 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA    1813^ 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  tJiat  question  for  the  same  reasons, 

Mr.  Clardy.  Witness,  I  show  yon  a  photostatic  copy  of  an  article  out 
of  the  Lansing  State  Journal  showing  Frank  Gregurek  in  a  picture,, 
and  ask  you  if  you  recognize  the  picture  as  the  man  Frank  Gregurek 
about  whom  I  have  been  inquiring  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Look  at  the  article  and  note  that  I  believe  it  gives  the 
address  of  401  Beaver  Street  at  Lansing,  Mich.  Is  it  there?  It  gives 
his  place  of  employment,  and  I  am  not  certain  whether  it  has  the 
address  or  not.    Does  it  ? 

Mr.  FoRER.  No ;  it  has  700  Sharon  Street. 

Mr.  Clardy.  That  is  a  place  of  business,  where  he  works. 

I  am  addressing  myself  to  the  doctor;  do  you  see  it  there? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  see  it. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Does  the  address  401  Beaver  Street  refresh  your  recol- 
lection as  to  Avhere  some  of  these  meetings  I  have  been  discussing  were 
held? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons- 
Mr.  Clardy.  To  further  refresh  your  recollection.  Witness,  I  show 
you  a  photograph  of  the  house  in  question.  It  has  been  put  in  evidence 
before  us  and  I  ask  you,  after  looking  at  that,  if  you  do  not  recognize 
that  as  the  house  where  Frank  and  Goldie  Gregurek  lived;  namely,. 
401  Beaver  Street,  Lansing,  Mich.  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Ci^RDY.  We  have  sworn  testimony  before  us  identifying  that 
house  and  identifying  that  location  as  having  been  the  places  occupied 
by  Frank  and  Goldie  Gregurek,  and  they  have  themselves  so  admitted 
before  us. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Let  the  record  show  the  picture  of  Gregurek  is  3  for 
identification,  and  the  house  is  4  for  identification. 

Mr.  Clardy.  It  has  been  referred  to  before,  but  it  is  as  w^ell  to  mark  it 
here.    Thank  you,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Witness,  did  you  know  a  William  Martin  w^hile  you  were  at  East 
Lansing?    All  my  questions  are  dealing  with  that  at  the  moment. 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes ;  I  knew  William  Martin. 

Mr.  Clardy.  William  Martin  has  been  identified  in  sworn  testi- 
mony taken  before  us  as  a  member  of  the  Young  Communist  League 
cell  to  which  you  also  belonged,  according  to  the  sworn  testimony  pre- 
sented by  the  several  witnesses  we  have  mentioned. 

Now,  do  you  recall  ever  attending  any  of  the  meetings  of  the  Young 
Communist  League  at  either  of  the  addresses  I  have  included  in  pre- 
vious questions? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  the  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Did  you  know  an  Edward  Simons  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes ;  I  knew  an  Edward  Simons. 

Mr.  Clardy.  He  was  connected  with  the  music  faculty  at  the  school, 
was  he  not? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Wlien  did  you  last  see  Mr.  Simons  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  recall. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Was  it  recently  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  No ;  it  wasn't  recently. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Well,  did  you  see  him  within  the  last  several  years  ? 

35663—53 6 


1814     COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  I — the  question  is  "the  last  several  years."  That 
is  so  indefinite,  I  would  say  perhaps  yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Before  I  finish  that  line,  I  want  to  ask  you  this,  to 
complete  the  picture :  Haven't  you  had  a  phone  conversation  with  him 
within  the  last  2  weeks  concerning  your  appearance  before  this  com- 
mittee and  the  appearance,  of  course,  of  Mr.  Simons  who  has  also 
appeared  before  the  committee  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Not  to  the  best  of  my  recollection. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Have  you  had  any  communication  with  him  directly 
or  indirectly  within  the  last  2  weeks  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Not  to  my  recollection. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  haven't  been  in  consultation  by  phone  or  other- 
wise with  his  attorney,  with  him,  or  anyone  else  concerning  the  ap- 
pearance of  either  of  you  two  gentlemen  before  this  committee  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Does  the  name  Isadore  Neeclleman  refresh  your  recol- 
lection, and  I  will  tell  you  that  Mr.  Needleman  is  an  attorney  for  Mr. 
Simons  and  he  has  an  office  at  165  Broadway  in  New  York  City? 

Dr.  Darling.  No  ;  that  doesn't  refresh  my  memory. 

Mr.  Clardy.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  witness,  hasn't  there  been  a  frank 
discussion  between  you  in  which  you  have  sought  to  have  him  refuse 
to  testify  concerning  you  before  this  committee? 

Dr.  Darling.  The  answer  to  that,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  is  no. 

INIr.  Clardy.  What  do  you  mean  "to  the  best  of  my  knowledge"? 
You  would  surely  know  on  a  matter  of  that  kind  whether  there  has  been 
such  a  conversation. 

Dr.  Darling.  The  answer  is  "No." 

Mr.  Clardy.  I  drop  the  2-week  limitation  and  ask  you  if  at  any 
time  there  has  been  such  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  No. 

Mr.  Clardy.  At  no  time  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  No. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Now,  forgetting  the  2-week  limitation,  have  you  had 
any  contacts  directly  or  indirectly  at  any  time  within  the  period  of 
time  that  elapsed  since  you  first  appeared  before  this  committee  at 
Washington  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  No. 

Mr.  Clardy.  None  whatever  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  None  whatever. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Now,  we  go  back  to  the  line  of  inquiry  that  I  was  on 
earlier.  Did  you  visit  with  Mr.  Simons  at  some  place  in  the  Nation 
in  the  year  1946  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  I  don't  recall. 

Mr.  Clardy.  What? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  recall. 

Mr.  Clardy.  To  help  your  recollection,  wasn't  it  a  meeting  that  took 
place  in  the  New  York  City  apartment  of  Mr.  Simons  ? 

Now,  witness,  I  should  tell  you  that  this  question  is  based  upon 
sworn  testimony  taken  before  this  committee.  Think  well  before  you 
answer. 

Dr.  Darling.  I  am  a  friend  of  his,  and  I  visited  him  there,  but  I 
don't  remember  the  dates. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Well,  it  may  have  been  about  the  time  I  indicated,  the 
year  1946,  then ;  but  you  are  not  sure,  is  that  right? 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES   IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA    1815 

Dr.  Darling.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Clardy.  All  right. 

Did  you  at  that  time  discuss  the  associations  you  had  had  together 
in  the  Young  Communist  League  during  the  period  you  were  at  Mich- 
igan State  College? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons.* 

Mr.  Clardy.  Now,  Doctor,  Dr.  Gewirts  was  interrogated  about  the 
same  subject  that  Bush  and  Gainor  were  interrogated  about,  and  that 
is  the  part  that  you  played  in  the  Communist  conspiracy  or  cell  at 
East  Lansing,  and  they  liave  testified,  as  you  have  heard  here  today, 
to  the  effect  that  you  were  sort  of  kept  in  the  back  room,  so  to  speak. 
I  want  to  read  you  some  testimony  on  the  same  subject  by  Dr.  Gewirts, 
and  then  ask  you  a  question.     [Eeading :] 

The  impression  I  bad  at  this  stage  was  that  he  [Dr.  Darling]  made  a  deliberate 
attempt  not  to  be  obvious  at  anj  meetings. 

My  question  is.  Is  this  sworn  testimony  given  by  the  doctor  true  or 
ialse? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  tliat  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Clardy.  At  another  place,  I  asked  the  witness  Gewirts  if  it 
wasn't  quite  plain  and  obviously  a  fact  that  you  not  only  were  a  Com- 
munist but  that  you  had  played  cagey  and  didn't  expose  yourself  to 
public  gaze ;  and,  in  answer  to  that,  didn't  he  say  "That  is  fair.  I  am 
trying  to  tell  you  exactly  what  happened,"  and  he  goes  on  to  tell  us, 
"That  is  exactly  the  way  it  happened." 

Now,  are  those  words,  those  statements,  by  Dr.  Gewirts  true  or  false? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  Clardy.  By  the  way,  did  you  know  Peter  Fagan  who  lived  in 
East  Lansing,  who  was  a  newspaperman  working  for  one  of  the  De- 
troit newspapers  at  this  same  time? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes;  I 

Mr.  Clardy.  What  is  that? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Do  you  remember  his  wife  Sarah  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Did  you  ever  attend  any  Young  Communist  League 
meetings  attended  by  either  or  both  of  those  people  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons, 

Mr.  Clardy.  Now,  Dr.  Gewirts  had  something  more  to  say  about  the 
subject  of  the  teaching  of  music,  and  it  was  made  quite  plain  in  the 
sworn  testimony  that  you  actually  complained  that  music  was  not 
written  in  a  way  to  carry  out  the  Soviet  school  of  thought,  and  a  ques- 
tion along  that  line  was  asked  him,  and  he  says,  "Yes ;  that  was  true." 
Is  that  testimony  true  or  false  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Then  another  question  was  brought  out  in  Dr.  Gewirts' 
testimony,  and  that  was  that  you  were  a  sort  of  supreme  court  in  the 
Communist  apparatus  in  the  area  there,  and  Mr.  Appell,  who  sits  on 
my  right  here,  asked  this  question :  "Would  there  have  been  any  pos- 
sibility of  the  members  of  the  unit  going  to  Darling  in  order  to  have 
Darling  put  them  straight  as  to  what  the  correct  line  should  be  ?",  and 
the  answer,  "Yes." 

Is  that  testimony  true  or  false  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 


1816    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA 

Mr.  Claedy.  Now,  yesterday,  I  sought  to  learn  how  long  you  had' 
lived  at  various  places  in  Detroit,  and  during  the  recess  overnight,  I 
have  been  doing  some  checking.  Isn't  it  a  fact.  Doctor,  that  you  lived 
at  the  Sylvester  Avenue  address  for  somewhere  between  o  and  4  years? 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  I  don't  know  whether  that  would  be  the  exact 
length  of  time  or  not. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Do  you  remember  the  name  of  a  store  there  in  Detroit 
called  Himmelhoch's  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  No. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  know  there  is  such  a  store  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  know  there  is  such  a  store ;  yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Do  you  recall  there  was  a  credit  application  made  for 
and  on  behalf  of  you  in  which  it  was  asserted  on  February  7, 1946,  that 
you  had  lived  at  this  Sylvester  Avenue  address  for  a  period  of  3i/2: 
years  prior  to  the  date  of  the  application  for  credit  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  remember  that. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Do  you  remember  that? 

Dr.  Darling.  No. 

Mr.  Clardy.  To  get  to  the  nubbin  of  it,  isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  did 
live  there  for  several  years,  at  least? 

Will  you  mark  this  application  as  an  exhibit? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Darling  exhibit  No.  5,  for  identification. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Didn't  you  live  there  for  several  years,  at  least  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sciierer.  The  exhibit  will  be  received  and  marked  as  indicated 
by  counsel. 

(Darling  exhibit  No.  5  was  marked  for  identification  and  received, 
in  evidence.) 

Mr.  Kunzig.  At  this  time,  for  the  record,  may  I  offer  Darling  ex- 
hibits No.  3  and  4;  the  picture  of  Gregurek,  3,  and  the  house,  4,  and 
ask  that  they  be  admitted? 

Mr.  Sciierer.  They  will  be  so  admitted,  Mr.  Counsel. 

(Darling  exhibits  No.  3  and  4  were  marked  for  identification  and 
received  in  evidence.) 

Mr.  Clardy.  Now,  a  final  question,  witness,  and  I  am  done  on  this : 
Isn't  it  a  fact  that  while  you  were  at  Michigan  State  College,  you 
were  exactly  in  line  with  the  SAVorn  testimony  in  the  hands  of  this  com- 
mittee, actually  the  directing  genius  or  head  of  a  cell  of  the  Young 
Communist  League,  and  that  most  of  the  members  were  students,  but 
that  you  and  a  few  others  on  the  faculty  were  also  members?  Is  that 
a  correct  statement  of  fact  or  not? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  for  the  aforementioned  reasons.. 

Mr.  Clardy.  That  is  all  I  have,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Sciierer.  Mr.  Walter? 

Mr.  Walter.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Sciierer.  Mr.  Kunzig,  do  you  have  any  questions  ? 

IVIr.  Kunzig.  May  we  have  a  break  at  this  point  ? 

Mr.  SciiEiiER.  We  were  going  to  have  a  break,  but  counsel  for  the 
witness  has  indicated  that  he  would  rather  complete  the  testimony 
of  Dr.  Darling.  We  asked  him  just  a  few  minutes  ago  whether  he 
wanted  a  break,  feeling  that  Dr.  Darling  lias  been  on  the  stand  quite 
some  time.     He  has  indicated  that  he  didn't  want  a  break. 

Mr.  Clardy.  It  has  only  been  an  hour  and  about  15  minutes,  Mr^ 
Chairman. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA    1817 

Mr.  ScriERER.  INIay  I  ask,  Mr.  Kiinzig,  do  you  have  some  questions? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes,  I  have  questions,  and  I  would  like  some  time. 

Mr.  SciiERER.  We  will  have  a  15-minute  recess  at  this  time. 

(A  short  recess  was  taken.) 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Mr.  Counsel,  I  understand  you  have  a  few  more  ques- 
tions you  want  to  ask  the  witness.     You  may  proceed. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  just  a  few. 

Mr.  Walter.  May  I  interrupt  before  you  get  started?  I  have  a 
few  questions.  I  didn't  know  there  would  be  more,  or  I  would  have 
interrogated  the  witness  before, 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Walter.  Doctor,  you  have  given  as  the  reason  for  refusing  to 
answer  questions  propounded  by  members  of  this  committee  the  posi- 
tion taken  by  one  of  the  principal  beneficiaries  of  our  liberty.  Dr. 
Einstein.  The  fact  of  the  matter  is,  you  refused  to  answer  these 
questions  in  Washington  before  Dr.  Einstein  made  his  gratuitous 
statement,  didn't  you  'I 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  So  that  it  wasn't  what  Dr.  Einstein  said;  you  are  just 
merely  adding  that  reason  to  whatever  reasons  you  had  when  j'ou  re- 
fused to  answer  the  same  questions  in  Washington?  Did  you  read 
the  comment  that  David  Lawrence  made  about  the  statement — con- 
cerning the  statement  made  by  Dr.  Einstein  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  No,  I  didn't. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  would  recall  it  to  you 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  Representative  Walter,  I  understand  that  you 
said  awdiile  ago  that  I  ought  to  stick  to  my  physics.  And  I  would  like 
to  tell  you  that  there  is  nothing  that  I  would  like  better  to  do. 

Mr.  Walter.  I  wish  you  would  devote  the  time  to  that  that  you 
devote  to  extracurricular  activities. 

You  mentioned  a  new  field  that  you  were  making  inquiry  into. 
You  said  that  ;/our  work  in  that  field  was  interrupted  because  your 
appearances  before  this  committee  interrupted  that.  It  was  some- 
thing in  which  the  Air  Force  was  concerned ;  what  was  this  field  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Theory  of  the  ozone  molecule. 

Mr.  Walter.  Ozone  molecule.  Why  would  the  Air  Force  be  in- 
terested in  the  ozone  molecule? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  know  why  the  Air  Force  would  be  interested 
in  the  ozone  molecule.  I  coidd  speculate  on  those  things,  but  what 
good  does  that  do  ?  My  only  interest  is  in  working  on  this  molecule, 
contributing  what  knowledge  I  could. 

Mr.  Walter.  Yes,  you  were  working  on  this  molecule  knowing  full 
well  that  whatever  research  would  produce  w^ould  have  military  value, 
didn't  you  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  T  didn't  know  what  value  it  would  have. 

Mr.  Walter.  You  suspected  that  it  might  have  military  value, 
didn't  you  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  No,  I  didn't  suspect  it  might  have  military  value  at 
all. 

Mr.  Walter.  Could  it  have  had  military  value? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Walter.  At  the  time  you  were 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  see  how  the  understanding — well,  put  it  this 
way :  The  basic  knowledge  of  physics,  understanding  of  the  f unda- 


1818    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA 

mentals  may  have  all  kinds  of  applications.    My  interest  is  in  funda- 
mental physics. 

Mr.  Walter.  But  weren't  you  being  compensated  by  the  United 
States  Air  Force  for  the  work,  the  research  work  you  were  doing? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  received  a  check  from  the  research  foundation  which 
I  understand  makes  some  contractual  relationships  with  the  Air 
Force. 

Mr.  Walter.  Yes ;  we  have  gotten  to  it  finally,  so  that  you  were  en- 
gaged in  worlv  in  which  the  Air  Force  was  directly  interested  and  for 
which  you  were  being  paid  indirectly ;  is  that  it  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  presume  that  is  it. 

Mr.  Walter.  Now,  at  the  time  you  were  engaged  in  this  work  for 
the  armed  services  of  the  United  States,  were  you  a  member  of  the 
Communist  Party? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason, 

Mr.  Walter.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Clardy,  May  I  ask  one  further  question  on  that  same  line,  Mr, 
Chairman  ? 

Mr,  Scherer.  Yes,  Mr.  Clardy. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  indicated  there  was  great  value  to  be  placed  on 
the  interrupted  work  that  you  have  been  doing.  What  assurance 
does  this  nation  have  that  the  results  of  your  labor  will  not  be  placed 
in  the  hands  of  the  enemies  of  America  ?  You  have  refused  to  answer 
all  questions  here  concerning  your  Communist  backgi-ound  or  affilia- 
tions, so  I  am  asking  you :  What  assurance  have  we  that  if  these  experi- 
ments had  been  carried  through  to  fruition,  the  results  would  not 
have  been  placed  in  the  same  channels  that  took  much  other  atomic 
information  to  Russia. 

(Dr.  Darling  conferred  with  Mr.  Forer.) 

Mr.  Clardy.  May  the  record  show  that  he  has  conferred  at  some 
length  with  his  attorney  before  answering  that  question. 

Mr.  Forer.  We  want  to  confer  a  little  longer,  too. 

(Dr.  Darling  conferred  with  Mr.  Forer.) 

Mr.  Clardy.  Mr.  Chairman,  it  is  obvious  that  they  will  consult 
all  day  and  hold  up  the  hearing.    I  withdraw  the  question. 

Mr.'  Forer.  Oh,  no. 

(Dr.  Darling  conferred  with  Mr.  Forer.) 

Mr.  Clardy.  The  question  is  withdrawn.  You  have  taken  prac- 
tically all  day. 

Dr.  Darling.  I  would  like  to  say 

Mr.  Clardy.  Counsel — never  mind;  you  are  not  being  addressed 
for  any  question  at  this  time. 

Dr.  Darling.  I  would  like  to  state  that  the  scientific  work  that  I  do 
is  of  a  nature  to  be  published  in  journals,  and  I  think  that  that  is  one 
of  the  things  that  will  work  to  the  benefit  of  physics  in  this  country, 
the  lack  of  free  exchange  of  physical  knowledge. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Mr.  Chairman,  that  is  all  I  had.  He  might  as  well 
have  said  he  refused  to  answer,  because  he  didn't. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Do  you  have  any  questions  ? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Yes ;  I  have. 

Dr.  Darling,  I  have  here  a  photostat  of  a  document  marked  Dar- 
ling Exhibit  No.  6  for  identification,  which  purports  to  be  an  en- 
velope and  with  the  Darling  Exhibit  No.  Y  for  identification,  a  letter 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA    1819 

which  was  in  the  envelope,  a  photostatic  copy  of  said  letter.  I  would 
like  to  ask  you  to  examine  these  first,  and  I  will  have  Mr.  Appell  bring 
them  to  you. 

Did  you  send  that  letter  in  that  envelope  to  Art  Wright  who  has 
been  mentioned  here  this  morning  ? 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  am  sorry ;  I  was  listening  to  the  gentleman ;  will  you 
repeat  the  question,  please  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  We  are  waiting  for  an  answer.  The  question  was: 
Did  you  send  that  letter  in  that  envelope  shown  there  as  Exhibit  6 
and  7  for  identification  to  Art  Wright,  who  has  been  mentioned  pre- 
viously here  this  morning,  and  whom  you  stated  that  you  knew? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  don't  recall  this  letter,  but  this  looks  like  my 
signature. 

Mr.  KuNziCx.  Is  it  your  signature  on  the  envelope  in  the  upper  left- 
hand  corner  on  exhibit  6  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  That  looks  like  my  signature. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  on  the  letter  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  should  like  to,  in  connection  with 
this  group,  this  Young  Communst  League  group  about  which  we  have 
had  testimony  this  morning,  and  whether  or  not  Dr.  Darling  knew  the 
people  involved,  and  whether  they  knew  him,  I  should  like  to  read 
this  letter  into  evidence  and  point  out  that  this  letter  was  written 
about — on  or  about  April  22, 1941,  which  was  just  prior  to  the  invasion 
of  Russia  by  Germany.  In  other  words,  it  was  during  the  "peace 
line"  when  the  Communists  in  this  country  were  for  peace  and  all 
against  our  participation  in  any  war. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Counsel,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  envelope  and  the  let- 
terhead itself  have  the  name  of  the  college  on  them?  Will  you  put 
that  in  the  record  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  will,  thank  you. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Your  request  is  granted ;  you  may  read  it  in  evidence. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  At  this  time,  I  offer  in  evidence  Exhibits  6  and  7. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  They  may  be  received. 

(Darling  Exhibits  Nos.  6  and  7  were  marked  for  identification  and 
received  in  evidence.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  It  is  written  in  handwriting — 

Dr.  B.  T.  Darling,  after  5  days,  return  to  Michigan  State  College,  Department 
of  Mathematics,  East  Lansing,  Mich. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Just  a  minute.  The  name  "Darling"  is  in  writing;  the 
rest  is  in  print. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes;  that  is  in  handwriting.  That  is  what  he  has 
testified. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Post  mark  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Lansing,  2 :  13  p.  m.,  Lansing,  Mich.  Written  to  Mr. 
Arthur  Wright,  W-r-i-g-h-t,  149  Pierpont  Street,  Brooklyn,  N.  Y. 

May  I  state  for  the  record  that  Arthur  Wright,  in  his  testimony  be- 
fore this  committee,  admitted  under  oath  that  at  that  time,  he  lived  at 
149  Pierpont  Street,  Brooklyn,  N.  Y. 

Ma}'  I  also  add  that  JSIr.  Wright  refused  to  answer  questions  with  re- 
gard to  Communist  Party  affiliations  on  the  ground  of  the  fifth  amend- 
ment, such  as  we  have  had  here  this  morning. 


1820    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA 

The  letter  which  you  have  given  me  permission  to  read  : 

To  Whom  It  May  Concern: 

J  have  known  Artlinr  and  Lois  Wright  for  about  2  years  and  assert  they 
were  planning  to  get  married  last  June,  and  these  plans  were  not  at  all  con- 
ditioned, by  the  present  draft,  since  it  was  not  at  that  time  in  existence. 
From  what  I  know  of  this  couple,  I  do  not  feel  their  appeal  for  deferment 
springs  from  the  fear  or  lack  of  knowledge  of  the  situation  we  have,  but 
the  reasons  come  from  the  fear  that  here  at  home,  the  democratic  way  of  life, 
which  guarantees  civil  liberties  and  pursuit  of  happiness,  must  be  done.  That 
you  do  this  by  interfering  as  little  as  possible  with  the  lives  of  people  by 
allowing  them  to  achieve  some  place  in  the  world,  by  their  having  a  job  and 
being  proud  of  it,  that  you  do  not  create  a  strong  democratic  army  by  taking 
people  when  they  will  only  feel  resentment  to  it.  In  times  like  these,  with  Hitler 
abroad,  we  must  look  to  our  defenses  in  the  broader  sense  of  the  word,  so  that 
what  has  happened  there  may  not  happen  here.  Yes,  our  army  must  he  strong, 
but  really  so,  hence  I  would  consider  carefully  its  selection.  It  is  this  import- 
ant .iob  which  rests  on  your  shoulders  as  members  of  either  the  draft  or  appeal 
board.  A  job  which  demands  painstaking  consideration  of  the  details  surround- 
ing each  case  and  requires  a  real  consideration  of  the  human  elements  involved 
and  cannot  be  therefore  a  rule  of  thumb,  mechanical  thin.y.  I  submit  these  facts 
as  beliefs  to  you  in  the  complete  faith  that  you  will  act  justly. 
Yours  truly, 

B.  T.  Darling. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Tliat  is  written  in  support  of  a  claim  of  deferrment  by 
a  man  who  has  been  identified  by  several  witnesses  in  our  record  as 
being  a  member  of  the  Communist  group  in  these  discussion  classes? 

Mr.  KuNziG,  That  is  correct. 

We  have  liad  testimony  that  Messrs.  Gainor,  Bush,  and  Wright  all 
knew  Darling — Garrett  is  a  man  we  haA^e  talked  about  here  as  Gewirts. 
Garrett  and  Gewirts  are  the  same  person.  Mr.  Gewirts  has  the  name 
Garrett,  had  his  name  legally  changed  in  a  record  of  law,  since  that 
time.    He  was  known  as  (jewirts. 

Mr.  Clardy.  I  used  the  correct  name  that  he  was  known  by  at  the 
time. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  That  is  right.  I  wanted  the  record  to  show  that  we 
had  the  same  person  in  these  two  names. 

We  then  have  Mr.  Gainor  testifying  that  he  knew  Mr.  Darling 
and  testifying  that  he,  Mr.  Gainor,  was  in  the  Young  Communist 
League.  Mr.  Bush,  the  same  way,  and  Garrett  admitting  that  he 
corrected  Darling's  mathematics  papers,  and  he  was  in  the  Young 
Communist  League. 

In  other  words,  Mr.  Chairman,  this  entire  group  were  members  of 
the  Young  Communist  League,  and  they  met  regularly  at  that  period 
of  time  in  Michigan. 

You  have  the  testimony  regarding  Gregurek,  and  I  have  one  other 
exhibit  which  I  should  like  to  offer.  We  have  here  in  our  posses- 
sion  

Mr.  ScHERER.  May  I  interrupt  you,  counsel ;  do  I  understand  that 
you  are  giving  us  a  resume  of  the  evidence?     If  so,  for  what  purpose? 

Mr.  KuN/iG.  I  want  the  record  to  be  clear  as  to  these  points,  leading 
up  to  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Gregurek. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Preliminary  to  questions  you  are  going  to  ask? 

Mr.  KuxzTG.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  SciiERER.  Proceed. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  two  documents  marked  "Exhibits  8  and  9,  Dar- 
ling," which  are  copies  of  a  1939  membership  dues  book,  and  initials 
in  these  books  are  "G.  G.,"  standing  for  "Goldie  Gregurek."    I  wish 


COAOIUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IX  THE   COLUMBUS,    OHIO,   AREA    1821 

this  to  be  stated  for  the  record,  that  the  initials  "G.  G.,"  in  receipt  of 
Commnnist  Party  membership  dues,  are  the  initials  of  Goldie  Gregu- 
rek,  and  also,  sir,  may  the  record  show  that  investigation  has  shown 
that  Goldie  Gregurek  was  a  member  of  the  State  Central  Committee 
of  the  Communist  Party  of  Michigan,  and  financial  secretary  of  the 
Communist  Party  in  the  Lansing  area  during  the  period  of  time  we 
Mere  discussing  this  morning. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  didn't  follow  you  closely.  To  whom  is  that  receipt 
issued  ? 

]yir.  KuNziG.  Investigation  has  shown  that  this  is  the  book  of  a  John 

Sova. 

The  question  of  putting  this  on  the  record  is  to  show  that  Mrs. 
Gregurek  was  actually  receiving  funds  for  the  Communist  Party,  and 
it  was  in  the  Gregureks'  home  that  a  lot  of  these  meetings  took  place. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  understand  now,  Mr.  Counsel. 

They  may  be  received  as  exhibits,  as  you  liave  indicated. 

( Darling  exhibits  Nos.  8  and  9  were  marked  for  identification  and 
received  in  evidence.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  We  have  the  photographs  of  Mr.  Gregurek  and  his 
liome. 

Dr.  Darling,  having  heard  all  this  testimony  this  morning  as  you 
have,  and  having  listened  to  the  statements  of  other  people,  a  profes- 
sor at  Pittsburgh,  a  professor'at  Harvard,  having  heard  these  people 
tell  through  their  testimony  that  they  were  members  of  the  Young 
Communist  group  which  met  there,  and  that  you  were  tlie  leader,  one 
of  the  main  leaders  of  this  group,  I  should  like  to  ask  you  once  again, 
were  you  a  leader  of  this  group,  und  did  you  not  attend  these  meetings  ? 

Dr.  Darlixg.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  should  like  to  turn  once  again  to  the  testimony  of 
Professor  Busli,  because  of  one  important  feature  which  I  think  should 
become  a  part  of  this  record. 

Mr.  Chairman,  there  has  been  a  great  deal  of  discussion  publicly 
and  in  the  press,  and  in  other  places  to  the  effect  that  teachers  should 
be  free  and  should  be  able  to  say  what  they  wish  and  that  there  is  this 
discussion  of  academic  freedom;  and  that  everybody  should  be  able 
to  do  anything  or  say  anything  and  the  point  that  I  believe  this  com- 
mittee and  others  have  made,  and  attempted  to  make,  is  that  a  Com- 
numist  teacher  is  not  free,  and  you  have  had  testimony  here  yesterday 
and  today  that  a  Communist  teacher  is  not  free. 

I  should  like  to  read  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Bush  in  re  this  particular 
point.    [Reading :] 

Mr.  Bush.  I  recall  having  considerable  reservations  about  this  group  from  the 
beginning.  I  think  I  thought  the  group  was  at  least  being  pro-Communist.  We 
were  certainly  studying  and  reading  Marxist  literature,  Communist  literature. 
I  frequently  [this  is  Mr.  Bush]  had  differences  of  opinion  with  people,  and  I 
recall  a  numlier  of  instances  of  being  squelched  by  Gainor  and  liy  Darling.  They 
would  accuse  me  of  opportunism  or  some  other  catch  phrase,  whenever  I  objected 
to  something  or  asked  a  question  about  something  being  discussed. 

Then  Mr.  Appell,  sitting  at  my  left,  asked — 

In  other  words,  your  recollection  is  that  you  and  other  members  of  this  group 
were  supposed  to  accept  that  which  was  set  forth  in  the  document  and  that  you 
were  reading  or  discussing  as  factual? 

Mr.  Bush.  I  remember  strong  pressure  being  put  on  me  at  times  to  accept 
what  was  said  in  these  publications  and  not  to  disagree  with  what  I  had  been 
reading. 


1822    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  Appell.  An  objection  on  your  part,  disagreeing,  brought  censure  from 
Gainer  and  Darling? 

Mr.  Bush.  Yes,  either  arguing  the  point  by  itself  or  name  calling,  if  the  former 
did  not  seem  to  be  practical.  In  all  these  discussions,  it  was  evident  to  me  that 
Darling  and  Gainor  had  more  facts  and  arguments  at  their  disposal  than  I 
did,  and  I  was  not  informed  on  political  matters  or  Communist  Party  literature. 

Mr.  Darling,  the  question  I  would  like  to  ask  you  is  this :  You  said 
you  were  only  interested,  a  few  moments  ago,  in  fundamental  physics. 
Did  these  discussions  transcend  fundamental  physics?  Did  they  go 
a  bit  beyond  fundamental  physics  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Weren't  these  questions,  sir,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  and 
these  discussions,  not  about  fundamental  physics,  but  about  com- 
munism, world  affairs  and  the  position  of  the  United  States  as  against 
the  position  of  Eussia? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  aforemen- 
tioned reasons. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  One  final  question,  sir.  You  spoke  of  the  importance 
of  your  work.  You  spoke  of  the  importance  of  the  physics  work  you 
were  doing.  You  spoke  of  the  Air  Force  wanting  such  work  and 
needing  such  work,  and  this  is  my  question :  In  the  present  state  of 
world  affairs,  Dr.  Darling,  do  you  honestly  believe  that  the  United 
States  Government  should  employ  a  scientist  on  a  vitally  important 
project  who  refuses  to  answer  questions  about  Communist  activities, 
and  who  shrouds  these  activities  in  secrecy  and  mystery? 

Dr.  Darling.  Well,  I  think  that  the  work  that  I  was  doing  was 
valuable,  was  a  contribution  to  my  country,  and  I  think  that  the 
Government — not  the  Government,  l3ut  the  project  I  was  working  on 
should  hire  me  back. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  That  doesn't  answer  the  question.  Dr.  Darling,  as  to 
whether  the  Government  should  hire  somebody  who  has  taken  the 
fifth  amendment  as  you  have,  and  has  not  testified  frankly  and 
honestly  and  correctly  before  a  committee  of  this  kind. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Mr." Kunzig,  I  think  he  has  answered  the  question. 
Not  satisfactorily,  of  course,  but  he  has  answered. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  All  right. 

Mr.  Clardy.  May  I  ask  counsel  a  question,  Mr.  Chairman? 

You  have  there,  I  believe,  letters  dealing  with  the  deferment  mat- 
ters from  other  members  of  the  group.  I  think  they  ought  to  be 
marked  as  exhibits  in  this  case. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  That  is  correct,  sir;  I  do,  and  I  would  like  to  offer  as 
No.  10,  Darling  exhibit  No.  10,  a  letter  from  Charles  Gainor 
similar 

Mr.  Scherer.  Does  this  refer  to  Dr.  Darling? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  No,  I  am  just  following  the  question  asked  by  Mr. 
Clardy. 

Mr.  Scherer.  I  think  they  should  be  in  evidence,  but  lets  put 
them  in  evidence  after  Dr.  Darling  is  off  the  stand.  They  do  not 
refer  to  Dr.  Darling,  but  to  other  men. 

Do  you  have  any  further  questions  to  Dr.  Darling? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  No. 

Mr.  Walter.  Before  you  close,  I  would  like  to  ask  one  other  ques- 
tion.    Doctor,  you  said  in  your  opinion  the  Government  should  hire 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1823 

you  back  to  continue  the  work  that  you  have  been  doing.  Of  course, 
if  that  very,  very  remote  thing  should  happen,  you  would  be  compelled 
to  sign  an  application  for  employment  in  which  you  would  be  required 
to  answer  the  question  whether  or  not  you  were  a  member  of  the  Com- 
munist Party.     How  would  you  answer  such  a  question  ? 

Dr.  Darling.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  Walter,  So  then,  you  would  put  as  an  answer  to  the  question 
on  form  57 :  Are  you  now  or  have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  ? :  "I  refuse  to  answer  that  question"  ? 

Mr.  ScHERER.  He  might  say,  as  he  did  before  the  university  presi- 
dent, might  say,  "I  am  not  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party"  because 
it  would  not  be  under  oath. 

Mr.  Walter.  This  form  is  under  oath ;  it  is  an  affidavit  form. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Are  there  any  more  questions,  gentlemen? 

Mr.  Walter.  I  would  like  to  have  an  answer. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  He  said  he  refused  to  answer.     I  interrupted. 

Are  there  any  more  questions  ? 

The  witness  is  excused  and  discharged  from  his  subpena. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  May  I  at  this  point  pursuant  to  your  request,  sir,  put 
on  the  record  as  what  we  will  call  exhibit  A  and  exhibit  B,  a  part  of 
this  record,  a  letter  from  Charles  Gainor  about  whom  there  has  been 
testimony  and  whose  testimony  has  been  read  to  the  committee,  "letter 
A,  to  whom  it  may  concern,"  draft  board  letter,  about  Arthur  Wright 
and  Lois  Wright. 

Mr.  Clardt.  Letters  seeking  to  persuade  them  to  defer  him  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  That  is  right.  And  a  letter  from  Edward  Simons, 
an  instructor  in  music,  about  whom  there  has  been  testimony,  letters 
with  regard  to  def errment  for  Mrs.  Lois  Wright  and  Mr.  Lois  Wright, 
to  whom  it  may  be  concerned. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  These  may  be  received. 

(Exhibits  A  and  B  were  marked  for  identification  and  received  in 
evidence.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  deferrment  is  for  Mr.  Arthur  Wright,  but  the 
letter  concerns  both. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Proceed  with  the  next  witness. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  next  witness  is  Mrs.  Flora  Webster. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  The  witness  will  raise  her  hand. 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  shall  give  to  this  sub- 
committee shall  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  do. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Let  the  record  note  that  Mr.  Forer,  the  same  counsel 
who  appeared  with  preceding  witnesses,  is  also  representing  Mrs. 
Flora  Webster. 

Would  you  state  your  name,  Mrs.  Webster  ? 

TESTIMONY  OF  TXORA  WEBSTER,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HER  COUNSEL, 

JOSEPH  FORER 

Mrs.  Webster.  Mrs.  Flora  Webster. 
Mr.  KuNziG.  And  your  correct  address,  please  ? 
Mrs.  Webster.  4625  East  15th,  Tucson,  Ariz. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Webster,  could  you  give  the  committee  a  resume 
of  your  educational  background? 


1824    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mrs.  Webster.  Well,  I  finished  grade  scliool  and  high  school  oiily^ 
and  then  I  took  an  evening  class  to  brush  up  in  shorthand  later,  high 
school.  The  high  school  was  Frontenac,  at  Frontenac,  Kans.,  and  the 
evening  class  was  taken  at  the  Houston  High  School. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  date  did  you  finish  your  education  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  finished  high  school  in  1937,  and  that  was  Fronte- 
nac  High  School,  and  I  just  recently  took  the  brushup  course  in^ 
shorthand. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  see.     When  were  you  married,  what  year? 

Mrs.  Webster.  1940. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  what  is  your  husband's  name,  Mrs.  Webster? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Willard  Parker  Webster. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Pardon  me  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Willard  Parker  Webster. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Willard  Parker  Webster  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Does  he  have  a  nickname  of  any  kind  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Ben. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Ben  Webster.  Now,  if  I  am  correct,  you  are  the 
sister  of  Barbara  Darling,  who  testified  here  previously?  Is  that 
correct  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  would  you  give  the  committee  a  resume  of  your 
employment  background,  Mrs.  Webster,  please  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Well,  I  sort  of  expected  that.     I  will  read  it. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  mean  you  guessed  that  we  might  ask  that  question  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  That  is  right.  I  made  a  list  because  I  have  had  quite 
a  few  part-time  jobs. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  All  right.     Would  you  read  from  your  list ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  This  may  not  even  be  all  of  them. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  To  the  best  of  your  recollection. 

Mrs.  Webster.  That  is  it,  to  the  best  of  my  recollection. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Certainly. 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  began  to  work,  my  first  job  was  at  L.  A.  Young 
Spring  &  Wire  Corp.,  some  time  in  1937. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  May  I  suggest  you  go  a  little  slower  so  we  will  be  sure 
to  get  the  record  straight  in  this  ?  Don't  talk  quite  as  fast,  if  you  don't 
mind? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Did  you  get  that? 

The  next  jobs  were  at  various  markets  in  the  Detroit  area,  then  from 
1943  to  approximately  1948,  I  worked  in  the  various  locals  of  the 
United  Automobile  Workers  of  the  Congress  of  Industrial  Organiza- 
tions in  the  Detroit  area,  and  also  for  the  Fur  &  Leather  Workers  of 
America. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Fur  &  Leather  Workers  of  America  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  That  is  the  same  union  we  had  testimony  about  tliat 
was  thrown  out  of  the  CIO  because  of  Communist  activity? 

Mrs.  WeBvSTer.  I  heard  that  yesterday. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  didn't  know  that  until  yesterday? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  was  never  aware 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  were  not  aware  that  it  was  thrown  out  because  of 
Communist  activity? 

Mrs.  Webster.  No. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1825 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Proceed. 

Mrs.  Webster.  In  1949  and  1950,  I  worked  for  a  physician  in  the 
Tucson  area.  In  1951,  1952,  for  the  Ford  agency  in  California.  In 
1952,  Southern  Arizona  Bank  &  Trust  Co.,  Tucson,  and  up  to  the  pres- 
ent time,  the  post  office  at  Tucson,  Ariz. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  In  the  post  office? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  will  come  back  to  the  post  office  employment  in  a 
few  moments. 

Mrs.  Webster,  did  you  ever  know  a  Toby  Baldwin  ? 

Mrs.  Y^'^ebster.  I  don't  recollect  knowing  anybody  by  that  name. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Pardon  me? 

Mrs.  Webs<ter.  I  do  not  recollect  knowing  anyone  by  that  name. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  know  a  Mrs.  Bereniece  Baldwin  who  is  also 
known  as  Toby  Baldwin  ?    "Toby"  is  a  nickname. 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  don't  know  anyone  by  the  name  of  Baldwin. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  That  is  B-a-1-d-w-i-n,  Mrs.  Bereniece  or  Toby  Bald- 
win.    Think  well. 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  can't  remember.  I  can't  remember  anyone  by  that 
name,  sir. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  That  would  be  in  or  about  Detroit,  Mich.,  in  or  about 
1943,  1944,  1945;  does  that  help  refresh  your  recollection? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  knew  a  great  many  people  in  that  time. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  see. 

Mrs.  Webster.  And  I  don't  remember  everybody  that  I  met  or 
knew. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  the  14th  Congressional  Club 
of  the  Communist  Party  of  Detroit? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  basis  of 
my  privilege  under  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  KuNsiG.  _You  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  ground  that 
it  might  incriminate  you,  is  that  correct  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  you  don't  know  Toby  Baldwin  or  can't  recall 
ever  having  known  Toby  Baldwin? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  don't  recall  her. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Let's  see  if  I  can  refresh  your  recollection.  Will  you 
please  bring  Mrs.  Baldwin  in  the  room?  I  believe  she  is  waiting  out- 
side, through  the  back,  please. 

(Mrs.  Bereniece  Baldwin  entered  the  hearing  room  at  this  point.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Webster  this  lady  who  just  came  in  the  room  is 
Mrs.  Toby  Baldwin.    I  ask  you  to  look  at  her  and  see  if  you  know  her. 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  basis. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mrs.  Baldwin.  We  will  hear 
from  you  later.    Take  a  seat,  please. 

Now,  isn't  it  a  fact,  Mrs.  Webster,  that  you  were  a  member  of  the 
14th  Congressional  Club  of  the  Communist  Party  in  Detroit  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  basis. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  were  a  member  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  basis. 
Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  basis. 


1826    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  a  group  which  sought 
to  overthrow  the  Government  of  the  United  States  by  force  or 
violence  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  refuse  to  answer,  whether  you  are  a  member  of 
the  Communist  Party,  but  not  to  your  knowledge  have  you  ever  been 
a  member  of  a  group  that  seeks  to  overthrow  the  Government  of  the 
United  States  by  force  and  violence  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  am  not  a  person  of  force  and  violence. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Let  me  remind  you  for  your  information  and  perhaps 
to  assist  you  a  bit  here  that  your  sister  testified  yesterday  that  when 
the  same  situation  came  up  that  she  was  not  now  a  member  or  a  group 
which  sought  to  overthrow  the  Government  by  force  and  violence, 
but  you  are  being  asked  whether  you  were  ever  at  any  time  a  member 
of  a  group  which  seeks  to  overthrow  the  Government  by  force  and 
violence  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  ground. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  It  is  the  same  question  I  asked  you  a  few  minutes  ago, 
but  now  you  refuse  ? 

Mr.  Scherer.  No  ;  she  has  answered. 

Wait  a  minute. 

Mr.  Walter.  Excuse  me. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Her  answer  was  "No"  to  that  question. 

Mr.  ScPiERER.  The  answer  to  the  last  question  was  the  fifth  amend- 
ment, as  I  remember.  If  the  witness  wants  to  change  the  answer, 
she  may  do  so. 

Mrs.  Webster.  Will  you  repeat  the  question,  please  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  here  a  document  marked  "Webster  Exhibit 
No.  1"  for  identification  and  in  order  that  the  witness  may  have  a 
chance  to  examine  it,  I  ask  Mr.  Appell  to  show  it  to  the  witness  and  to 
her  counsel. 

Now,  Mrs.  Webster,  you  have  seen  this  Webster  Exhibit  No.  1  for 
identification,  I  ask  you  if  it  wasn't  your  application  for  Federal 
employment  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Yes,  it  is. 

Mr.  Ktjnzig.  It  is  a  photostatic  copy  of  your  own  application,  isn't 
that  right? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  This  was  dated  September  20,  1952,  and  it  is  signed 
on  the  back,  Mrs.  Flora  Webster,  is  that  correct  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Prior  to  that  signature  is  stated : 

I  certify  that  the  statements  made  by  me  in  tliis  application  are  true,  complete, 
and  correct  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  belief,  and  are  made  in  good  faith. 

Question  17  says — 

Are  you  or  have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  any  organization  which  advocates 
the  overthrow  of  our  form  of  government  or  advocates  or  approves  acts  of  force 
or  violence  to  deny  other  persons  their  rights  under  the  United  States  Consti- 
tution or  seeks  to  alter  our  form  of  government  by  unconstitutional  means? 

and  there  is  a  little  box  with  a  cross  mark  in  it  by  the  word  "No." 


COMIMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA    1827 

Was  that  question  in  that  employment  form  and  did  you  answer  it? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  that  was  your  answer  on  September  20, 1952  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  consider  the  Communist  Party  an  organiza- 
tion seeking  to  overthrow  the  Government  of  the  United  States  by 
force  or  violence? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Not  to  your  knowledge. 

Now,  was  your  husband  ever  an  employee  of  the  Federal 
Government  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Yes,  he  was. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  When  was  that,  and  what  was  his  employment  so  far 
as  you  can  recall  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  don't  remember  the  exact  dates.  It  was  while  we 
were  in  Detroit. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  While  you  were  in  Detroit  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  was  his  job? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Mail  carrier. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  A  mail  carrier? 

Mrs.  Webster.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  An  employee  of  the  Post  Office  Department? 

Mrs.  Webster.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  had  a  conversation  with 
Mrs.  Baldwin  who  appeared  before  us  just  a  moment  ago  here  in  this 
hearing  room  and  that  you  visited  with  Mrs.  Baldwin  at  various  times 
at  your  home,  and  isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  wanted  to  resign  from  the 
Communist  Party  and  the  club  because  of  your  husband's  activities, 
Ben  Webster's  activities ;  that  he  worked  for  the  Government  as  a  mail 
deliverer  and  that  he  requested  you  to  drop  your  membership  in  the 
Communist  Party  ?     Isn't  that  a  fact  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  wanted  out  and  you  offered  to 
contribute  financially  to  the  party  until  such  a  time  as  you  could  again 
become  a  member,  but  at  that  point  you  wanted  to  be  let  out? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  basis. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  Mrs.  Baldwin  made  many  visits  to 
your  home  trying  to  impress  you  with  the  need  of  remaining  in  the 
party  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  basis. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  isn't  it  a  fact,  Mrs.  Webster,  that  you  said  to  Mrs. 
Baldwin  that — you  told  her  about  your  sister,  Mrs.  Darling,  and  you 
said  you  could  see  nothing  so  terribly  wrong  in  dropping  membership 
in  the  party,  that  some  of  the  professional  groups  had  never  been  open 
members,  although  they  contributed  and  freely  affiliated  with  the 
party,  and  that  you  said  that  was  the  case  with  your  sister,  and  your 
sister's  husband.  Dr.  Darling,  a  physicist  ?     Isn't  that  a  fact  ? 


1828    COMAIUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  basis. 
Mr.  KuNziG.  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  told  Mrs.  Baldwin  that  your 
sister's  husband,  Dr.  Darling,  w^as  not  an  open  member  of  the  party 
because  they  thought  he  could  do  more  being  in  secret,  so  to  speak,  for 
the  party? 
Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  basis. 
Mr.  KuNziG.  And  isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  wanted  the  same  privilege 
for  yourself  that  had  been  accorded  Dr.  Darling  as  a  leading  profes- 
sional member  of  the  party  ? 
Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  basis. 
Mr.  KuNZiG.  Now,  Mrs.  Webster,  Avere  you  ever  a  member  of  the 
Wonder's  unit,  section  3,  of  the  Young  Communist  League? 
Mrs.  AVebstek.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  basis. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Didn't  you  attend,  on  June  12,  1940,  a  meeting  held  in 
Magnolia  Hall,  on  Magnolia  Street,  Detroit,  of  Wonder's  unit,  sec- 
tion 3,  of  the  Young  Communist  League  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  basis. 

Mr.  Kdnzig.  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  these  meetings  usually  consisted  of 
short  talks,  the  sale  of  Young  Communist  League  literature,  the  sale 
of  books  on  the  life  of  Stalin — that  stuff  was  sold  at  these  meetings? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  basis. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  jou  recall  they  discussed  at  this  meeting  a  summer 
school  being  set  up  for  the  training  of  young  Communist  leaders  dur- 
ing the  first  2  weeks  in  August,  the  cost  per  student  to  be  $20  for  the 
2  weeks,  part  of  the  cost  to  be  paid  by  the  Wonder's  unit  sending  the 
student  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  basis. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  attend  a  banquet  to  welcome  the  national 
counselor  of  the  national  Young  Communist  League  at  8951  12th 
Street  in  Detroit  on  July  12,  1940  ? 

Mrs.  Webster.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  basis. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  it  is  apparent  that  the  fifth 
amendment  is  going  to  be  the  answer  on  all  questions  we  may  ask,  so 
I  therefore,  have  no  further  questions  to  ask  of  this  witness. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Mr.  Clardy,  do  you  have  any  questions  ? 

Mr.  Clardy.  No,  I  have  no  questions. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Mr.  Walter? 

Mr.  Walter.  I  believe  you  worked  in  the  post  office  up  until  March 
of  this  year? 

Mrs.  Webster.  It  was  November  of  last  year. 

Mr.  Walter.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  The  witness  is  excused,  and  discharged  from  the 
subpena. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  should  like  for  the  record  to  ask  that 
the  document  which  has  been  discussed  as  Webster  exhibit  No.  1  be 
admitted  into  evidence. 

Mr.  SciiERER.  It  may  be  so  received  and  noted  in  the  record. 

(The  exhibit,  Webster  No.  1,  marked  for  identification,  was  re- 
ceived in  evidence.) 

Mr.  SciiERER.  Do  you  have  another  witness? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  wish  to  break  at  this  moment,  sir? 

Mr.  SciiERER.  Could  I  talk  with  you  a  moment,  sir? 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1829 

Mr.  KuNziG.  We  are  ready,  then,  sir,  to  call  as  the  next  witness  in; 
this  hearing  Mrs,  Bereniece  Baldwin. 

Please  come  forward,  Mrs.  Baldwin. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Would  you  raise  your  right  hand,  please? 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  shall  give  to  this 
subcommittee  shall  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MRS.  BERENIECE  "TOBY"  BALDWIN 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Baldwin,  I  note  that  you  are  not  represented 
by  counsel.  You  understand,  of  course,  your  absolute  right  to  have 
counsel  advise  you.  Do  you  wish  to  have  counsel,  or  are  you  per- 
fectly content  to  testify  without  counsel  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  am  absolutely  content  to  testify  without  it. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  give  your  name  for  the  record,  please?. 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Mrs.  Bereniece  Baldwin. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  sometimes  known  as  Toby  Baldwin? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes,  I  am. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Baldwin,  what  is  your  present  address,  please?.' 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Detroit,  Midi.    Do  you  want  the  full  address? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  have  a  house  number  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes,  16272  East  State  Fair  Street,  Detroit,  Mich.. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Baldwin,  is  it  a  true  fact  that  you  were  an 
undercover  agent  within  the  Communist  Party  working  with  and. 
cooperating  with  the  FBI  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes ;  that  is  true. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  have  testified  previously  before  this  committee ;; 
is  that  correct  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes ;  I  have. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  On  other  matters? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  was  the  period  of  time  that  you  worked  for  the- 
FBI  as  an  undercover  agent  in  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  From  approximately  May  of  1943  until  February  of 
J.  y »_)  ^ , 

Mr.  KuNziG.  As  recently  as  1952  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  starting  in  1943? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  name  did  you  use  in  the  Communist  Party,  Mrs.. 
Baldwin? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  used  the  name  Toby  Baldwin. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Baldwin,  you  heard  the  last  witness  testify  here^, 
Mrs.  Webster.  You  heard  her  say  that  she  didn't  know  you.  Did 
you  know  her  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes,  I  did. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  know  her  well  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Fairly  well,  yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  she  know  you  in  1943  and  1944? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  She  certainly  did.  ; 

35663 — 53 7 


1830    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  briefly  testify  and  tell  the  committee  how 
you  got  into  the  party,  Mrs.  Baldwin? 
Mrs.  Baldwin.  How  I  got  in  ? 
Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes.     How  you  got  in  the  party. 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes,  after  several  conferences  with  agents  of  the 
Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation,  I  joined  the  party,  filled  out  an  ap- 
plication for  membership  following  an  open  rally  by  Communist 
Party  leaders. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  offices  have  you  held  in  the  Communist  Party? 
Mrs.  Baldwin.  Membership  and  dues  secretary  for  various  sections. 
I  have  worked  at  the  office  relieving  the  receptionist  and  the  stenogra- 
pher there. 

I  became  membership  and  dues  secretary  for  the  State  of  Michigan, 
district  7,  in  1947  and  1948.  There  were  various  other  posts,  but  I 
believe  that  covers  it. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  as  membership  secretary  of  the  Communist 
Party,  what  responsibilities  did  you  have  there  in  the  State  of 
Michigan  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Primarily  of  taking  of  the  reports  that  were  handed 
in  to  me  on  the  status  of  each  individual,  tabulating  them  for  the 
NeAV  York  office.  It  was  also  issuing  of  membership  cards  for  1948 
and  the  registration  began  in  the  fall  of  1947. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Baldwin,  did  you  know  during  that  early  period 
of  your  activity  in  the  Communist  Party  an  individual  by  the  name  of 
Barbara  Springer  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes ;  I  did. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now  known  as  Barbara  Springer  Darling,  or  Mrs. 
Darling,  the  wife  of  Professor  Darling,  who  testified  here  this  morn- 
ing or  yesterday.  You  weren't  here  yesterday,  Mrs.  Baldwin,  but  Mrs. 
Darling  also  testified  yesterday  before  this  committee. 

How  did  you  first  become  acquainted  with  Barbara  Springer  to  the 
best  of  your  recollection? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  heard  her  name  in  party  circles  in  the  latter  part 
of  1943,  and  the  first  part  of  1944,  but  I  actually  saw  her  in  person  at 
a  Michigan  State  conference,  which  was  held  in  1944. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  You  say  "Michigan  State  conference."    Do  you  mean 
a  Michigan  State  conference  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 
Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Was  this  the  convention  of  the  Communist  Party 
which  dissolved  the  Communist  Party  and  created  the  Communist 
Political  Association? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  It  was  a  meeting  called  for  that  purpose  for  the 
discussion  of  the  delegates. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Had  the  national  convention  of  the  Communist  Party 
already  adopted  the  program  to  change  to  the  Communist  Political 
Association  and  had  the  convention  ratified  the  action  of  the  national, 
or  was  that  the  convention  for  the  purpose  of  obtaining  approval  in 
the  State  of  Michigan  to  adopt  this  new  organizational  structure 
known  as  Communist  Political  Association  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  That  was  for  the  establishment  of  it  after  the  na- 
tional committee  had  already  made  the  decision. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  So  that  at  the  time  this  convention  took  place,  it  was 
called  by  the  Communist  Party  of  tlie  United  States,  rather  than  the 
Communist  Political  Association? 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA    1831 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  That  is  true. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  you  had  this  acquaintanceship  with  Barbara 
Springer.  How  long  a  period  did  you  know  her?  Did  she  stay 
around  Detroit  for  awhile,  or  did  she  leave  ? 

Mrs.  BxVLDWiN.  She  left  shortly  after  I  appeared  there,  and  we 
were  told — members  of  the  party  were  told  that  she  had  gone  west- 
ward with  her  husband. 

Mr,  KuNziG.  Did  you  have  any  knowledge  whether  her  husband 
was  a  physicist  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  had  been  told  he  was  a  physicist. 

Mr.  Knuzig.  What  period  of  time  was  this  i 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  1944. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  1944? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  want  to  make  sure  our  dates  are  correct  because  we 
had  some  testimony  yesterday  that  the  two  were  married  in  1946.  Did 
you  know  them  in  1944?    You  knew  Mrs.  Darling  in  1944? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  she  left,  then,  to  go  with  her  husband  the  latter 
part,  later,  after  that  period  out  west  somewhere,  according  to  your 
knowledge,  is  that  right? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  yon  also  testified  that  you  know  or  knew  Mrs. 
Darling's  sister,  Flora  Webster,  who  you  stood  before  this  morning, 
is  that  correct? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  would  you  tell  the  committee  everything  you 
know  with  regard  to  Flora  Webster's  attempting  to  get  out  of  the 
party?  Would  you  explain  in  detail  to  the  members  of  the  com- 
mittee, please? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes.  I  should  begin  with  the  beginning  of  when 
Flora  Webster  was  transferred  into  my  cell.  It  was  then  called 
the  Frederick  Douglass  Community  Club  and  was  broken  down  into 
smaller  groups.  They  became  a  member  of  the  same  unit  as  I,  which 
was  called  the  14th  Congressional  Club  of  the  Communist  Party.  It 
was  during  this  period  that  we  had  to  make  arrangements  for  the 
election  of  officers  for  this  new  club  or  cell,  I  should  say,  and  it  was 
the  chairman,  Stanley  Dembski,  and  myself  who  made  periodic  visits 
to  Flora  Webster's  home  to  indoctrinate  her  into  the  activities  of  what 
this  club  would  do. 

It  was  during  this  period  that  she  voiced  her  disapproval  of  her 
husband — Ben  Webster's  thoughts  that  she  should  drop  out  of  the 
party  because  of  security  for  him.  We  made  several  trips  there  to 
convince  her  of  the  necessity  of  remaining  in  this  cell. 

Mr.  Clardt.  Made  several  trips  where  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  To  her  home. 

Mr.  Clardt.  Proceed. 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Well,  that,  I  believe,  answers  your  question. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  have  any  other  conversations  with  Mrs. 
Webster? 

IVIrs.  Baldwin.  We  had  many  conversations  with  her  during  this 
period.  It  was  during  this  time  that  she  told  me  she  couldn't  under- 
stand why  she  couldn't  be  granted  the  same  privileges  of  not  being 
an  open  party  member,  the  same  as  her  sister's  husband,  Dr.  Darling, 


1832    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

as  she  called  him.  She  said  he  was  doing  more  good  for  the  party  not 
being  an  open  member  and  she  felt  she  could  do  the  same  thing. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  would  you  explain  to  the  committee  from  your 
personal  knowledge,  from  your  work  with  the  cards  and  the  records 
of  the  Communist  Party  and  the  part  to  which  you  belonged,  would 
you  explain  how  professional  people  such  as  teachers  and  professors 
were  handled  in  your  records  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  They  were  the  hidden  or  secret  part  of  the  Com- 
munist Party.  The  names  were  usually  not  known  unless  you  happen 
to  know  the  individuals.  I  did  come  in  contact  with  quite  a  few  of 
them  through  their  own  word  of  mouth,  not  through  other  party 
members.  When  they  would  say  they  belonged  to  a  certain  cell,  this 
was  information — I  wouldn't  say  underground  activities  at  that  time, 
but  they  were  working  towards  the  Communist  goal  without  being 
open  party  members.  They  would  be  handed  in  to  me  on  lists  such 
as  so  many  clubs,  such  a  professional  club,  or  teachers'  club.  Many 
of  such  lists  were  handed  to  me. 

They  would  come  into  contact  with  a  leader  of  that  situation,  and 
that  was  later  repudiated,  that  I  was  not  to  contact  them. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  teachers  and  professors  were  something  apart, 
something  very  important,  and  something  to  be  handled  very,  very 
specially ;  is  that  right  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes;  I  was  once  told  by  the  party  leader  that 
their 

Mr. KuNziG.  Who? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Helen  Allison. 

Mr,  KuNziG.  Is  that  Helen  Allison  Winter  ? 

Mrs,  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Is  that  the  wife  of  Mr.  Winter,  who  was  convicted  in 
the  leading  Communist  trial  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  That  is  true.  I  was  once  told  that  their  type  of 
work,  it  would  require  not  being  an  open  party  member. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  mean  the  work  of  the  professors  and  teachers 
would  require  their  not  being  open  party  members? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  That  is  right.  They  could  not  be  known  as 
Communists. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  This  also  applied  to  other  leading  professional  people, 
such  as  lawyers  and  people  of  that  nature? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  All  of  our  hidden  party,  which  we  had  quite  a  few 
of,  it  was  called  the  professional  group,  but  within  that  professional 
group  were  many  cells  such  as  the  professional  people  in  their  own 
right.  Lawyers  would  have  a  group,  teachers  would  have  a  group,  even 
civil-service  workers  had  a  group,  college  students  had  a  group  within 
various  colleges,  Michigan  State,  Lansing,  and  so  forth.  The  uni- 
versity had  their  own  group. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  these  facts  are  known  to  you  of  your  personal 
knowledge  from  your  experience  as  being  an  undercover  agent  in  the 
Communist  Party  ? 

Mrs.  Bai.dwin.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Walit.r.  Wliat  is  the  maximum  number  of  members  in  these 
professional  groups  during  the  period  that  you  were  in  the  party? 

Mrs,  Baldwin.  There  would  be  a  variance  on  that,  sir,  because  in 
1948  when  we  had  a  tightening  up,  were  taking  security  measures,  they 
took  those  certain  cells,  put  in  on  a  certain  area,  and  combined  it 


COMIMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1833 

together,  but  I  would  say  as  an  overall  professional  figure,  that  would 
be  400  to  500  in  1947. 

Mr.  Walter.  In  1947,  there  were  a  maximum  of  500  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  A  rough  figure.  There  were  many  not  even  entered 
on  the  lists. 

Mr.  Walter.  Of  that  number,  how  many  were  in  the  teaching 
profession  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  would  safely  say  between  200  and  250. 

Mr.  Clardt.  But  that  number  was  broken  down  into  small  cells? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  Clardy.  You  are  giving  us  the  overall  number? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  The  overall  number. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Mrs.  Baldwin,  of  what  part  or  what  group  or  what 
club  were  you  a  member  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Well,  do  you  mean  towards  the  last,  or  throughout? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Let's  start  at  the  beginning,  in  1943. 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  was  a  member  of  section  3,  branch  157,  and  that 
was  in  1943. 

In  the  fall  of  1943,  I  was  transferred  to  a  newly  organized  section 
of  the  Communist  Party  for  the  east  side  residents  and  that  was  called 
the  Frederick  Douglass  Community  Club. 

The  first  part  of  1944,  there  was  a  breakdown  of  that  club,  which 
had  around  700  members,  and  they  broke  it  down  to  a  territorial  basis, 
and  I  became  a  member,  was  transferred  as  dues  secretary  to  what 
was  known  as  the  14th  Congressional  Club. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  14th  Congressional  Club? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Was  Flora  Webster  transferred  in  that  14th  Con- 
gressional Club  when  you  were? 

Mrs.  Baldw^in.  She  was  not  transferred  from  the  same  club  that  I 
was,  she  had  not  been  a  member  of  the  same  club  of  which  I  had  been 
a  member,  but  she  was  transferred  in  there  from  the  Mid-Town  Club. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Into  the  14th  Congressional  Club  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  So  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge  that  Flora  Web- 
ster was  a  member  of  the  14th  Congressional  Club  of  the  Connnunist 
Party  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  certainly  do. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  You  say  you  sat  in  meetings  with  her? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  What  is  the  maximum  number  of  members  of  the 
Communist  Party  in  the  State  of  Michigan? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  At  present? 

Mr.  Walter.  No.     At  any  time. 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Between  3,000  and  3,700.  That  was  a  rough  figure. 
Recruits  were  coming  in  throughout  the  year. 

Mr.  Walter.  ^Ylien  was  that? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  That  would  be  in  the  fall  of  1947. 

Mr.  Walter.  Fall  of  1947.     How  many  are  there  now  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  wouldn't  knoAv.     They  have  gone  underground. 

Mr.  Walter.  How  many  were  there 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  couldn't  tell  you  because  I  transferred  to  another 
branch. 


1834    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA 

Mr.  Walter.  Did  the  number  increase  or  decrease  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  It  would  have  decreased. 

Mr.  Walter.  What  do  you  attribute  the  decrease  to? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  ^Yel\,  when  I  say  it  decreased,  I  mean  that  as  an 
overall  figure,  because  it  would  be  hard  to  keep  track  of  them.  Many 
of  them  were  dropping  out  of  the  party  because  of  fear  and  many  of 
them  just  didn't  believe  in  the  party,  but  the  majority  didn't  want  to 
be  known  as  Communist  Party  members. 

Mr.  Walter.  Dropping  out  because  of  fear? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  Fear  from  what? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Fear  from  different  legislation  that  was  being 
passed. 

Mr.  Clardt.  Fear  of  exposure? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  Walter.  Is  it  that  as  much  as  it  is  an  appreciation  that  they 
are  part  and  parcel  of  an  international  conspiracy  to  overthrow  our 
form  of  government  ?     Isn't  that  it  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  For  the  members,  I  would  like  to  answer  that  this 
way.  For  the  members  who  have  participated  in  the  educational 
phases  of  the  Communist  Party  and  know  what  it  stands  for,  they 
definitely  know  it  is  a  conspiracy. 

Mr.  Clardy.  They  know  full  well  what  it  is  about,  then,  don't  they, 
the  elite? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  They  certainly  should. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Baldwin,  you  were  membership  secretary  of  the 
group,  were  you  not? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Of  the  14th  Congressional  Club  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  So  you,  even  more  than  anyone  else,  would  know  who 
were  members  better  than  anyone  else? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  accepted  their  dues. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  accepted  their  dues? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes,  I  did. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  That  would  seem  to  make  it  pretty  clear. 

Now,  I  would  like  to  ask  you  this  question,  if  I  may.  Did  you 
attend  the  1944  convention  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  did. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Where  was  it  held  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  That  was  held  at  the  Jericho  Temple,  in  Detroit, 
Mich. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Wliat  was  the  location  again? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  On  Joy  Road,  2705  Joy  Road,  Detroit,  Mich. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  At  that  1944  convention  of  the  Communist  Party,  in 
which  you  met  Barbara  Springer  Darling,  could  she  have  been  a 
participant  in  that  convention  without  being  a  member  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  No,  she  couldn't  have. 

Mr.  Kttnztg.  You  did  meet  her  there  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes,  I  did  meet  her  there. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Did  vou  check  her  credentials? 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  COLUMBUS,   OHIO,  AREA    1835 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  worked  on  the  credentials  committee,  but  I  did 
not  handle  names. 

Mr.  Kttnzig.  I  see.  But  you  definitely  saw  Barbara  Springer 
Darling  there? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  She  gave  a  report ;  yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  She  did  ?    What  report  did  she  ^ive  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  That  was  a  resolution  and  review ;  committee  report. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  "Wliat  was  the  review  committee? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Political  activities  of  the  party,  and  hers  dealt 
tvith  the  phase  of  the  Teheran  Conference. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  She  gave  that  report  personally? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Yes,  it  was  my  first  convention  of  the  Communist 
Party,  and  I  shan't  forget. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Nobody  could  actually  give  an  important  report  such 
as  that  to  the  Communist  convention  without  herself  being  a  Com- 
munist, could  she? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  We  elected  delegates  from  our  various  cells.  We 
had  to  be  elected  delegates. 

JMr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  happen  to  know  from  what  cell  Mrs.  Darling 
came  ? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  No,  I  know  it  was  the  west  side,  but  I  did  not  know 
what  cell. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  making  that  report  as  she  did,  would  she  have 
been  chairman  of  the  review  committee  to  give  that  report? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  Not  necessarily  State  chairman.  She  would  have 
been.    I  don't  remember  exactly  what  she  was. 

Mr.  Clardy.  Mr.  Counsel,  what  year  was  this  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  will  ask  the  witness. 

What  year  was  this? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  In  the  spring  of  1944. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  So  that  you  positively  identified  Mrs.  Darling  as  a 
member  of  the  Communist  Party  and  Mrs.  Webster  as  a  member  of 
the  Communist  Party,  is  that  correct? 

Mrs.  Baldwin.  I  do. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  no  further  questions  to  ask,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  ScHEEER.  Mr.  Clardy,  do  you  have  any  questions? 

Mr.  Clardy.  No,  I  think  counsel  has  done  a  competent  job.  I  have 
no  further  questions. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Mr.  Walter? 

Mr.  Walter.  No  questions. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  The  witness  is  excused  and  discharged  from  her  sub- 
pena.     Thank  you  very  much. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  no  further  witnesses  to  bring^ 
before  this  committee. 

Mr.  Clardy.  On  this  matter? 

^Ir.  KuNziG.  On  this  matter  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Scherer.  This  concludes  the  hearings  here  in  Columbus. 

The  committee  wishes  to  thank  the  people  in  this  community  wha 
have  contributed  so  much  to  the  hearings,  the  press,  the  television,  and 
particularly  my  good  friend  Sidney  Isaacs,  counsel  and  director  of  the 
Ohio  Commission  on  Un-American  Activities,  who  handled  many  of 
the  details  and  arrangements  for  this  hearing,  and  also  Mr.  Samuel 


1836    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   CuLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA 

Devine,  the  chairman  of  the  Ohio  Commission  of  Un-American 
Activities,  which  is  doing  such  a  splendid  job  in  this  State. 

I  want  to  thank  the  sergeant-at-arms,  Mr.  Claude  Woodward,  for 
his  efficient  service,  and  the  four  members  of  the  Ohio  State  Highway 
Patrol,  who  assisted  him. 

I  desire  also  to  thank  Mr.  Scatterly,  the  superintendent  of  this 
■building  who  cooperated  so  splendidly  with  the  committee. 

The  committee  is  now  adjourned. 

(Whereupon  the  meeting  adjourned  at  12:  30  p.  m.) 


APPENDIX 

(By  order  of  the  committee,  the  following  is  incorporated  into  the 
record  of  these  hearings :) 

July  2,  1953. 
Memorandum  in  be  Dakling  Hearing  at  Columbus,  Ohio 

The  Darling  hearings  are  hereby  reopened  for  the  purpose  of  inserting  in  the. 
record  documentary  evidence  and  a  statement  with  respect  thereto.  This  docu- 
ment was  not  known  to  exist  at  the  time  of  the  Columbus  hearings  on  June  17  and 
18,  1953. 

It  will  be  recalled  that  Barbara  Ann  Darling's  previous  name  was  Barbara 
Ann  Springer.  At  the  hearings  in  Columbus,  she  and  her  sister,  Florence  Web- 
ster, refused  to  answer  numerous  questions  with  reference  to  their  membership  in 
the  Communist  Party  and  their  activities  in  connection  therewith.  Both  parties 
refused  to  answer  said  questions  because  to  do  so  might  tend  to  incriminate  them 
or  at  least  so  they  contended. 

At  the  Columbus  hearing,  one  Bereniece  Baldwin,  a  former  undercover  agent 
for  the  FBI,  who  became  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  at  the  request  of 
the  FBI,  identified  both  Barbara  Ann  Darling  and  Florence  Webster,  her  sister, 
as  members  of  the  Communist  Party. 

It  is  significant  to  note  that  in  spite  of  these  positive  identifications  by  Bereniece 
Baldwin  and  the  refusal  of  the  parties  to  either  deny  or  aflSrm  membership  in 
the  Communist  Party  when  they  had  the  opportunity  to  do  so,  reports  have  come 
to  the  committee  that  there  are  still  a  number  of  persons  at  Ohio  State  and  else- 
where who  contend  that  Mrs.  Baldwin,  the  FBI  agent,  was  not  telling  the  truth 
and  was  acting  in  the  role  of  a  typical  informer.  Of  course,  these  persons  who 
make  such  contentions  in  the  face  of  such  overwhelming  evidence  can  be  classified 
with  those  individuals  who  still  claim  that  Alger  Hiss,  the  Rosenbergs,  and  so 
forth,  are  innocent. 

There  has  come  into  the  possession  of  the  committee,  since  the  Columbus 
hearing,  documentary  proof  which  completely  corroborates  the  testimony  of 
Bereniece  Baldwin.  The  manner  in  which  this  documentary  evidence  was  dis- 
covered, in  and  of  itself,  helps  to  demonstrate  the  conclusiveness  of  the  evidence 
developed  in  the  Darling  matter. 

The  documentary  evidence,  hereby  made  a  part  of  the  record,  markefl  "Darling 
Exhibit  No.  9,"  is  a  letter  to  Dr.  Bella  Dodd,  signed  by  20  persons,  including 
Barbai'a  A.  Springer.    This  letter  reads  as  follows :  ^ 

"Dear  Betxa  Dodd  :  We,  the  Michigan  comrades,  delegates  to  this  historic 
national  1944  convention,  warmly  welcome  you  into  our  direct  work  and  leader- 
ship and  with  all  comradely  wishes  for  the  success  of  your  great  work." 

Dr.  Bella  Dodd  v.as  called  to  testify  at  Columbus  on  matters  generally  relating 
to  Communist  infiltration  into  the  field  of  education.  As  far  as  Dr.  Dodd  was 
concerned  when  she  arrived  at  Columbus,  Ohio,  she  did  not  know  nor  had  she  had 
any  contact  with  the  Darlings.  However,  during  the  Columbus  hearing,  she 
learned  that  Mrs.  Darling's  former  name  was  Barbara  Ann  Springer.  As  Dr. 
Dodd  flew  back  to  New  York,  that  name  kept  presenting  itself  to  her  mind.  On 
arrival  in  New  York,  she  cheeked  through  he  old  files  and  found  Mrs.  Darling's 
letter. 

It  will  be  recalled  that  Bereniece  Baldwin  testified  at  the  Columbus  hearing  that 
she  met  Barbara  Ann  Springer  Darling  and  her  sister,  Florence  Webster,  at  the 
1944  national  convention  of  the  Communist  Party  in  Michigan,  and  that  both  were 
delegates.  It  should  be  further  noted  that  Bereniece  Baldwin  testified  that  only 
delegates  of  the  Communist  Party  were  permitted  to  attend  such  conventions, 
that  Barbara  Ann  Springer  Darling  attended  said  convention  as  a  delegate  and,  as 
chairman  of  a  committee,  rendered  a  report  on  the  political  activities  of  the 
party. 

Gordon  H.  Scherek, 


Sec  p.  18.SS  fcT  photographic  reproduction  of  document. 

1837 


1838    COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   COLUMBUS,   OHIO,   AREA 

Darling  Exhibit  No.  9 


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INDEX 


INDIVIDUALS 

Page 

Allison,  Helen  (Mrs.  Winter) 1832 

Amter,  Israel 1745 

Anderson,  James 1838 

Baldwin,  Bereniece  "Tob.y"__  1739,  1825,  1827, 1828,  1829-1835  (testimony),  1837 

Beiswenger,  A 1838 

Bevis,  Howard 1778,  1800-1802 

Boas,   Franz 17G4 

Boyd,   Gerald 1838 

Braunlich,  Art 1838 

Browder,    Earl 1746 

Bush,  Robert  H 1804,  1805.  1807-1810.  1815,  1820-1822 

Chapman,  Mr 1782 

Dallin,  Dave 1772 

Darling,  Barbara  Ann  (see  cZso  Barbara  Ann  Springer) 1783-1795  (testimony), 

1796, 1830, 1831, 1834, 1835, 1837 

Darling,  Byron  Thorwell 1778-1782, 

1786, 1787, 1795-1828  (testimony) ,  1827, 1828, 1831 

Dembski,  Stanley 1831 

Devine,  Samuel 1739,  1799,  1835,  1836 

Dodd.  Bella  V 1741-1777  (testimony),  1837.  1838 

Dombrowski,  Ruth 1790,  1791 

Dombrowski,  Thomas  F.  X 1789,  1790 

Einstein,  Albert 1764,  1801,  1817 

Emmons,  Lloyd  C 1781,  1782 

Fagan,  Peter 1815 

Fagan,  Sarah 1815 

Finklestein,    Moe 1762, 1764 

Fletcher,  William 1838 

Forer,  Joseph 1779, 1783-1795, 1823-182S 

Foster,  William  Z 17G1 

Frank,   Richard 1775 

Gainor.   Charles 1806-1808, 1810, 1815, 1820, 1822, 1828 

Ganley,  Nat 1S88 

Garrett,  Mr.  {see  also  E.  R.  Gewirts) 1820 

Gauss,    Christian 1764 

Gerson,    Simon 1743, 1744 

Gewirts,  Edward  Robert  (Garrett) 1810-1812,  1815,  1820 

Gold,  Ben 1786 

Grecor,  Pressley 1838 

Green,  Gil 1743, 1745, 174r 

Gregurek,  Frank 1812, 1813, 1816, 1820, 1821 

Gregurek,  Goldie 1812,1813, 1820, 1821 

Harris,  James  C 1778, 1779, 1780, 1800 

Higdon,  Hoke 1838 

Hiss,  Alger 18.37 

Hoover,  J.  Edgar 1741, 1761 

Hurst,  Willie 1838 

Isaacs,   Sidney 1739, 1799, 1835 

Kohl,  Adeline 1838 

Kruzlo,  Leo  J 1838 

Lautner,  Johnny 1760 

Lawrence,  David — 1817 

Lockner.    Anna    May 1787 

1839 


1840  INDEX 

Page 

Luxon,  Norval  Neil 1777-1780  (testimony) 

Maisenburg,  Riflta 1838 

Martin,    William 1813 

Matles,  Eben 1785 

Matles,  James 1785, 1786 

Maxwell,  Matilda 1838 

McKie,  Bill 1838 

Miller,  Steve  (alias  for  J.  Peters) 1753 

Needleman,    Isadore 1814 

Neilsen,  H.  H 1782 

Norman,  Bill 1748 

O'Hair,  Richard  F 1793 

Peters,  J.  (alias  Steve  Miller) 1752,1753 

Philbrick,  Herbert 1776 

Rieger,  Frank 1807 

Rieger,  Goldie 1807 

Ross,  Charlotte 1838 

Scatterly,  Mr 1836 

Shapiro,  Harold 1786 

Silverman.  Harriett 1746 

Simons,  Edward 1813, 1814, 1823 

Smith,  Gerald 1809 

Sova,  John 1821 

Spencer,  Tom 1838 

Springer,  Barbara  Ann  {see  also  Barbara  Ann  Darling) 1787, 

1830, 1831, 1837, 1838 

Svvanstrom,  Monsignor 1763 

Taft,  Lois  (Mrs.  Arthur  Wright) 1812 

Tann,  A.  J 1792 

Toohey,  Pat 1838 

Trachtenberg,  Alexander 1771 

Van  Dusen,  L.  J 1787 

Van  Dnsen,  Mabel 1787 

Webster,   Flora 1823-1828  (testimony),  1831, 1833, 1837 

Webster,  Williard  Parker  (Ben) 1824,1827 

White,  David 1838 

Williams.  Prof.  Dudley 1781,1782 

Williams.  Fred 1838 

Winter,  Helen  Allison 1832 

Winter,  Mr 1832 

Woodward,  Claude 1739, 1799, 1836 

Wright,   Arthur 1811, 1812, 1819, 1820, 1823 

Wright.  Lois  (formerly  Lois  Taft) 1812,1820,1823 

ORGANIZATIONS 

American  Association  of  University  Professors 1757 

American  Committee  .for  Democracy  and  Intellectual  Freedom 1762 

American  Federation  of  Labor 1742,  1745,  1753,  1755,  1767 

American  Federation  of  Labor,  New  York 1744 

American  Federation  of  Teachers 1742,  1753,  1755,  1767 

American   Labor   Party 1767 

American  League  Against  War  and  Fascism 1752 

Anti-Fascist  Literature  Committee _1746 

Central  Trades  and  Labor  Council 1744,  1755 

Columbia    University 1742 

Congress  of  Industrial  Organizations 1755,  1758,  1763,  1767,  1785,  1786,  1824 

Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation 1837 

Harvard  University 1804,  1805,  1809,  1821 

Hunter  College 1742,  1747,  1753,  1776 

International  Fur  and  Leather  Workers'  Union  of  America 1786,  1788,  1824 

Kansas  State  Teachers  College 1784 

Mexico  Citv  College , 1784 

Michigan  State  College 1781,  1782,  1796,  1815,  1816,  1819 

National  Federation  of  Labor 1755 

New  York  City  College 1753 


INDEX  1841 

Fage 

New  York  Federation  of  Teachers 1742 

New  York  State  Federation  of  Labor 1744,  1755 

New  York  Teacher's  Union 1742,  1753-1755,  1763,  1775,  177G 

New  York  University 1742 

Ohio   State  University 1777-1784. 

1788-1791,  1796, 1797,  1799-1801,  1803 

Pennsylvania  State  College 1796 

Progressive  Party 1767 

University  of  Connecticut 1774 

University  of  Illinois 1796 

University  of  Michigan  State 1796, 1802, 1805-1811 

University  of  Pittsburgh 1806, 1821 

University  of  Virginia 1775 

University  of  Wisconsin 1784, 1788, 1789, 1796 

United  Automobile  Workers,  CIO , 1824 

United  Electrical,  Radio,  and  Machine  Workers  of  America 1785, 1786, 1788 

Yale  University 1796, 1802 

PUBLICATIONS 

The  Communist 1774, 1775 

Daily  Worker 1751, 1756 

Glos   Ludowy 1789, 1790 

Lansing  State  Journal 1813 


BOSTON  PUBLIC  LIBRARY 

3  9999  05445  4945 


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